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  1. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 6:37pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The NRA is fighting a long term losing strategy. Its political strategy consists of enraging aging white males while alienating most other people. This strategy will lead to defeat as aging white males die off and are replaced by various minorities. As I've always said the future of the 2nd amendment lies with roping diverse people into enjoying shooting sports like USPSA, steel shooting, 3 gun matches, etc.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  2. Mtripp is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 6:49pm

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    Phui

    The second amendment is NOT about sporting. To go down that path is to fail.

    Anyone who believes we would have gotten the Heller Decision had progressives been in charge of the white house and placing Supreme Court Justices for the last 8 years also believes Thunder curdles milk.

    Yes, right now, the progressives are not going after gun control. They know the court is against them, and they would have an even bigger problem in November than they all ready do. So they will wait, until the Court is on their side, and then we will new more laws like the fatuous "Assault Weapon Ban."

    People have predicted the end of the NRA for years, mostly durning the Clinton era. Not going to happen any time soon, no matter how wishful the progressives are.

    See you all in November.....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  3. Hooded Justice is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 7:54pm


     Style: Justice/Firearms

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Phui

    The second amendment is NOT about sporting. To go down that path is to fail.
    Trying to put a friendlier mental association with guns is something a pro gun person should embrace. Sport shooting directly displays firearms in a more realistic light than news, tv or movies. It shows responsible people using a "physically and socially dangerous item" in a socially and physically safe and responsible manner. So far the NRA argument of "We need guns to protect against criminals and government" is a fear based campaign that historically has proven not to work in the long run as demonstrated by their noted lack of influence in the '08 election.

    If you are right about progressives then you are losing your rights and the NRA strategy has failed anyway so why not try a new one? If you are wrong and their strategy IS working then your rights are not being eroded and you should be more receptive to someone putting a friendlier face on guns anyway as it can only increase positive perception.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Anyone who believes we would have gotten the Heller Decision had progressives been in charge of the white house and placing Supreme Court Justices for the last 8 years also believes Thunder curdles milk.

    Yes, right now, the progressives are not going after gun control. They know the court is against them, and they would have an even bigger problem in November than they all ready do. So they will wait, until the Court is on their side, and then we will new more laws like the fatuous "Assault Weapon Ban."
    Also don't generalize. It cheapens you. According to wikipedia: "Progressivism is a political attitude favoring or advocating changes or reform. Progressivism is often viewed in opposition to conservative or reactionary ideologies. The Progressive Movement began in cities with settlement workers and reformers who were interested in helping those facing harsh conditions at home and at work. The reformers spoke out about the need for laws regulating tenement housing and child labor. They also called for better working conditions for women." Yeah those progressives are dangerous...?
    Last edited by Hooded Justice; 5/13/2010 7:57pm at .
  4. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2010 12:10am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Phui

    The second amendment is NOT about sporting. To go down that path is to fail.

    Anyone who believes we would have gotten the Heller Decision had progressives been in charge of the white house and placing Supreme Court Justices for the last 8 years also believes Thunder curdles milk.

    Yes, right now, the progressives are not going after gun control. They know the court is against them, and they would have an even bigger problem in November than they all ready do. So they will wait, until the Court is on their side, and then we will new more laws like the fatuous "Assault Weapon Ban."

    People have predicted the end of the NRA for years, mostly durning the Clinton era. Not going to happen any time soon, no matter how wishful the progressives are.

    See you all in November.....
    Mister Tripp, we seem to keep running headlong into each other like a couple of mountain goats. Why are you so quick to turn everything into a binary argument? Before this thread turns into a massive confusion of abstract concepts and undefined terms, would you please (and I say this with copious respect) explain your definition of "progressives?"

    Note that this question isn't aimed specifically at you, Mr. Tripp, but why is it that right wing gun advocates (for want of a better term) constantly act like the Brady Campaign is a left wing entity despite the fact that it was founded by President Reagan's Press Secretary and his wife (not the First Lady)?
    Last edited by Robstafarian; 5/14/2010 12:19am at . Reason: If I'm going to present myself as a copy-editor, I should probably take care to keep my own writing tenchically correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  5. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2010 9:25am

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    Yes, what he said. I have a lot of respect for you M. Tripp so I really would like a better understanding of where you are coming from on this issue.

    Saying "the progressives" is confusing to me as I consider myself a progressive on social issues, but I am liberal (in the literal sense - ie. libertarian) on a lot of issues such as gun control, gay rights & religion. My issue with the NRA is not its core mission of 2nd amendment protection, that is something I whole-heartedly support, it is all the extra baggage that comes along with it.
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  6. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2010 7:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Phui

    The second amendment is NOT about sporting. To go down that path is to fail.
    You know what else is fail? Demonstrably, rather than hypothetically, fail? Letting Hollywood movies determine what a huge portion of Americans know about guns.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  7. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2010 12:00pm

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Based on the increase in the number of shall carry states, and the recent Supreme Court Case in Heller (which was more due to the Cato Institute legal team) one can hardly say that the NRA legal strategy has "failed". The most that can be said is that it makes certain people "uncomfortable", but as a liberal who owns firearms, I have to let you in on a obvious reality. You are not going to make the Nation Magazine and Mayor Bloomburg happy. They want restrictive gun control. This is a political battle, and I hope they lose.
  8. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2010 10:21am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning View Post
    Based on the increase in the number of shall carry states, and the recent Supreme Court Case in Heller (which was more due to the Cato Institute legal team) one can hardly say that the NRA legal strategy has "failed". The most that can be said is that it makes certain people "uncomfortable", but as a liberal who owns firearms, I have to let you in on a obvious reality. You are not going to make the Nation Magazine and Mayor Bloomburg happy. They want restrictive gun control. This is a political battle, and I hope they lose.
    When I was growing up in New York City and going through elementary school and high school, at the time I was pro gun control with all the political baggage that entailed. It was a position I derived from the culture of the urban east coast and from my parents.

    My position complete changed when I had the chance to actually go shooting and learn real things about firearms. I found out that firearms are much more complex to use and maintain, much more interesting, and much more of a discipline that had been portrayed in my cultural background.

    Years later I was able to get my mom, who likewise had originally been pro gun control, into shooting by revealing those aspects to her. Now she participates in shooting sports and appreciates the cultural background that gives rise to familiarity with firearms.

    The only real way to cut through the rhetoric and political theater is to go ahead and get people who haven't done so before and who are full of misconceptions to go and shoot. Let them see the discipline, let them learn the history, let them field strip, clean, and maintain. That's how knowledge replaces ignorance.

    In the long term if the NRA or any one else wants to put "gun control" on the rocks they need to harness truth, honesty, and knowledge against ignorance, and not focus on rage, rhetoric, and theater.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  9. Mtripp is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2010 10:48am

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    I am always at a loss to understand how I am supposed to reply to people who are deliberately being obtuse. I simply do not know if they are indeed a donkey or simply the perfect imitation of one. Clearly I am not typing this in a futile attempt to change your point of view. You have far too much kool aid in you for that. Yes, you could say the same things about me; the problem is you lack the evidence.

    It seems to me there is only one to be made. Which side of US politics stands firm in what our founders meant when they wrote the second amendment, and those who do not.

    1. Who gave us the 1968 Gun Control Act? A bill proven to be almost word for word taken from Nazi Germany’s gun ban… Was it the left or the right?

    2. Local bans against “Saturday Night Specials,” which by the way were and are ways to deny poor people the means to defend themselves. Left or Right?

    3. Claiming the “militia” spoken of in the 2nd amendment is the National Guard even though the Supreme Court and the Federalist Papers both have clearly stated that is NOT the case. Progressive notion or Conservative notion?

    4. “Cop Killer Bullets,” which side gave us that term, even though there has NEVER been a cop killed with one? Left or Right? Bonus points, which side used that to create a bill which would have banned EVERY hunting round in the country, and when it was defeated uses that defeat TO THIS DAY to claim the NRA is against sensible gun control? Left or Right?

    5. “Gun Show Loophole,” which side came up with this LIE as there is NO SUCH THING, and is using it to attempt to insert new federal regulations at gun shows that would usurp states rights? Left or Right? Note: EVERY legal firearm sale ANYWHERE, must be transferred according to the Federal and State regulations pertaining to it. No matter where it is done. To assert this needs not be done at a gun show is a LIE and the progressives KNOW IT’S A LIE. So, why do they keep lying?

    6. “Waco” and “Ruby Ridge,” which side gave us that cluster ****, over the ATF claim that fully automatic weapons were on the premise, and yet, TO THIS DAY not a single one was found nor has it ever been proven they were there? I’ll give you a hint; it’s the side yelling the loudest about the missing WMD’s in Iraq.

    I can type a dozen more, but why bother. As I said, I am not going to change their mind. I do hope what I have done is made those of you who have not drank the kool aid to look these events up. Ask yourself why one side seems to have the overwhelming number of people with NO PROBLEM pissing on your 2nd amendment rights.

    Then join the NRA, and REALLY listen to those people speaking there, and HEAR what they are saying. You just might learn something you didn’t know before….
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  10. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2010 11:41am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    I am always at a loss to understand how I am supposed to reply to people who are deliberately being obtuse. I simply do not know if they are indeed a donkey or simply the perfect imitation of one. Clearly I am not typing this in a futile attempt to change your point of view. You have far too much kool aid in you for that. Yes, you could say the same things about me; the problem is you lack the evidence.

    It seems to me there is only one to be made. Which side of US politics stands firm in what our founders meant when they wrote the second amendment, and those who do not.

    1. Who gave us the 1968 Gun Control Act? A bill proven to be almost word for word taken from Nazi Germany’s gun ban… Was it the left or the right?

    2. Local bans against “Saturday Night Specials,” which by the way were and are ways to deny poor people the means to defend themselves. Left or Right?

    3. Claiming the “militia” spoken of in the 2nd amendment is the National Guard even though the Supreme Court and the Federalist Papers both have clearly stated that is NOT the case. Progressive notion or Conservative notion?

    4. “Cop Killer Bullets,” which side gave us that term, even though there has NEVER been a cop killed with one? Left or Right? Bonus points, which side used that to create a bill which would have banned EVERY hunting round in the country, and when it was defeated uses that defeat TO THIS DAY to claim the NRA is against sensible gun control? Left or Right?

    5. “Gun Show Loophole,” which side came up with this LIE as there is NO SUCH THING, and is using it to attempt to insert new federal regulations at gun shows that would usurp states rights? Left or Right? Note: EVERY legal firearm sale ANYWHERE, must be transferred according to the Federal and State regulations pertaining to it. No matter where it is done. To assert this needs not be done at a gun show is a LIE and the progressives KNOW IT’S A LIE. So, why do they keep lying?

    6. “Waco” and “Ruby Ridge,” which side gave us that cluster ****, over the ATF claim that fully automatic weapons were on the premise, and yet, TO THIS DAY not a single one was found nor has it ever been proven they were there? I’ll give you a hint; it’s the side yelling the loudest about the missing WMD’s in Iraq.

    I can type a dozen more, but why bother. As I said, I am not going to change their mind. I do hope what I have done is made those of you who have not drank the kool aid to look these events up. Ask yourself why one side seems to have the overwhelming number of people with NO PROBLEM pissing on your 2nd amendment rights.

    Then join the NRA, and REALLY listen to those people speaking there, and HEAR what they are saying. You just might learn something you didn’t know before….
    (bold added)

    False Dilemma
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