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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2010 2:35pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Wisdom from 1906

    Percy Longhust's Jiu-Jitsu and Other Methods of Self Defense, the chapter titled "Ground Locks"

    Jiu-Jitsu is self-defense, and the exponent of Jiu-Jitsu rarely attempts to meet force with force, but relies upon his quickness and the opportunities his assailant's attack leaves open for an effective counter-move. He never rushes at an opponent, or endeavours by main force to insert one of his paralysing holds; he give way--falls, perhaps, dragging his enemy with him, and, before the latter has recovered from his surprise, he finds the Jiu-Jitsuite, by some slight movement, has contrived to grip his wrist, arm, or leg in such a manner that, if he move, dislocation or breakage will take place.

    Whether falling to the ground is expedient must depend upon circumstances. If attacked by half-a-dozen men it would hardly be advisable to over-throw one, follow him to the earth, and fix one of the arm-breaking locks; there is reasonable ground to suppose that the discomfited man's friends would not be so thoroughly mindful of his awkward plight as to refrain from further assault because his arm or leg might be broken. On the contrary, the supposition is that they would resort to their iron-shod boots, regardless of their companion's fate. Under such circumstances one would not use the same tactics as if one were assaulted by a single man, or engaged in a tussle with a burglar or housebreaker whom one would be glad to secure until the police arrived to take charge of him. A chance combat with three or four assailants would take the form of a sudden, vigorous assault, the use of the fists upon the nearest or least-prepared, followed up by the bringing into play of the arm twist, arm-across-the-neck hold, or a leg stroke from a wrist-and-collar hold, upon the first who might be advantageously gripped. When, however one is desirous of securing or rendering hors de combat a single adversary, then what for convenience sake I will style "ground locks" com in exceedingly useful.
    Seems Mr. Longhurst takes the middle ground in the "striking vs grappling" debate. No mention of broken glass, rocks, AIDS tainted needles, or Liquid Hot Mag-Ma, however. ;)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. Craig Jenkins is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2010 2:58pm


     Style: Uechi Ryu, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good post - a remarkably realistic view given some of the other early commentary on eastern martial arts.

    If I may ask, do you have this book or were you able to find this online?
  3. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2010 3:03pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mr. Lawson, if your posts contained even a tiny bit more Awesome, I believe my brain would explode from the exposure.

    Is Mr. Longhurst's book a new repub project of yours? Sounds like it might go a long way toward helping me with a pet project I've been nursing... I'm attempting to determine a chronology for the development of modern ground grappling.
  4. MGM is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2010 4:37pm


     Style: Bartitsu&German Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kirk, your scholarship and willingness to share is much appreciated. I salute you and all the others who continue to revive historical martial knowledge.
  5. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 7:29am


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Jenkins View Post
    Good post - a remarkably realistic view given some of the other early commentary on eastern martial arts.
    It's rather interesting, particularly in light of the "Boxing vs Jiu-Jitsu" debate going on around that time (well documented by the Bartitsu Society's work on the subject).

    If I may ask, do you have this book or were you able to find this online?
    Both. Dr. Milo Thurston of the Linacre School of Defence at Oxford has a raw scans pdf available and has allowed me the privileged of republishing this work. I'll let you guys know when it's finished.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  6. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 7:35am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seems common sense was in short supply even in 1906 and people had to be reminded to not do stupid ****. Wake the **** up people it doesn't take much to figure that out.

    RBSD people and sport practitioners will always be at odds with each other its all a matter of what you are training is to accomplish.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  7. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 7:39am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe View Post
    Mr. Lawson, if your posts contained even a tiny bit more Awesome, I believe my brain would explode from the exposure.
    In the words of THE Panda, "No charge for Awesomeness and Attractiveness."

    Is Mr. Longhurst's book a new repub project of yours?
    Yes, this my current project. I'm starting today on pp46 out of 107.

    Sounds like it might go a long way toward helping me with a pet project I've been nursing... I'm attempting to determine a chronology for the development of modern ground grappling.
    Are you looking to trace certain classes of holds or something more generic?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  8. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 8:57am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Yes, this my current project. I'm starting today on pp46 out of 107.
    Fantastic! I love your republications. Can't wait for this one!

    Are you looking to trace certain classes of holds or something more generic?
    Basically, it seems to me that modern ground wrestling (both Submission groundfighting and Wrestling matwork) seems to have avoided development until the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. The Wrestling manuals from the period which I have read (mostly consisting of your repub work) seem to place progressively more and more emphasis on matwork as time goes on. For example, in the 1887 work Dick's Art of Wrestling, the author describes mat wrestling as "unseemly pulling," and completely ignores any exposition on mat techniques.

    Similarly, while groundfighting locks and chokes were certainly known to early Judo fighters, it seems that ne-waza development was largely put on the back-burner as compared to standing Judo. It wasn't until Oda Tsunetane (Join) and his students embarassing the First Higher School Judo team in 1918 that ne-waza was given much credence. Kano-shihan, himself, reportedly referred to ne-waza as the "degeneration of Judo."
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 9:04am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    It's rather interesting, particularly in light of the "Boxing vs Jiu-Jitsu" debate going on around that time (well documented by the Bartitsu Society's work on the subject).
    Longhurst himself wrote a very good article on that subject ("Has the boxer any chance against the jujitsuite?") in 1907. Unlike a number of the more strident contributors to the debate, he actually tested the styles against each other and concluded that a boxing/jujitsu combination would approach the ideal unarmed self defense art.

    The slight irony is that Barton-Wright had been saying the same thing since 1899, for all the good it did him ...
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 9:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe View Post

    Basically, it seems to me that modern ground wrestling (both Submission groundfighting and Wrestling matwork) seems to have avoided development until the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. The Wrestling manuals from the period which I have read (mostly consisting of your repub work) seem to place progressively more and more emphasis on matwork as time goes on. For example, in the 1887 work Dick's Art of Wrestling, the author describes mat wrestling as "unseemly pulling," and completely ignores any exposition on mat techniques.

    Similarly, while groundfighting locks and chokes were certainly known to early Judo fighters, it seems that ne-waza development was largely put on the back-burner as compared to standing Judo. It wasn't until Oda Tsunetane (Join) and his students embarassing the First Higher School Judo team in 1918 that ne-waza was given much credence. Kano-shihan, himself, reportedly referred to ne-waza as the "degeneration of Judo."
    Check into what happened when jujitsuka first started taking on Western wrestlers in Barton-Wright's London music hall challenge matches, from 1899 onwards. Most significantly:

    * from the outset, Barton-Wright framed these challenges as "tests" of European wrestling against the Japanese style, from the self defense point of view. He defaulted to competitive jujitsu rules, at least ostensibly, because he felt that submission grappling was a better simulation of street fighting than were rules that allowed victory by first fall or pin. Note that the concept of sub. grappling was *very* controversial at the time.

    * Thus, the European wrestlers were to some extent set up to lose by having to fight according to unfamiliar sub. rules (including having to wear gi jackets). They were quite often able to throw and even pin the jujitsuka, but they didn't know what to do next; the jujitsuka were happy to be thrown and pinned because they could apply their sub locks from all sorts of positions.

    * Under these conditions, which were still basically friendly sporting encounters (albeit fought for prize money if the European challengers could avoid being subbed for a period of time), the jujitsuka (Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi) defaulted to ne-waza. They won almost all their matches through strangles, arm or leg locks on the ground.

    * From then on, though, it was only a matter of time before European, American etc. wrestlers began to master the "new" style, at which point you start to see weight and strength advantages tilting the odds in their favor. The really interesting stuff happened in that period when Western wrestling styles were playing catch-up.

    * Thus, the evolution of modern pro-wrestling (more $$$ than straight matches) with a sub-current of shoot submission wrestling (catch-as-catch-can/jujitsu hybrids fought to tap-out, etc.) thrown in for good measure during the early decades of the 20th century.
    Last edited by DdlR; 5/13/2010 10:12am at .
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