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  1. Shug is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 10:59am


     Style: TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Discussion; what, in your opinion, defines an effective self defense style?

    This is inspired by a topic on G-faqs that I found, and really have ALWAYS found, interesting. I would like to find out what you all beleive defines an effective DEFENSE martial art, as opposed to a sport.... or, in your opinion, if there is even any differentiation. Lets try and look at it objectively, Ego free, biases aside (heh, I know what I'm asking, not everyone takes a philosophy and debate class, but lets try).

    I mean, thats extremely debatable. I personally don't think that anyone could really list what style is more effective then what for self defense. There are those who would say CMA, but though effective, it takes a long ass time to get down pat. Some will tell you BJJ, but truth be told, thats just as sport oriented as olympic TKD, and it HURTS to roll around on cement. I know one particular person who would say boxing, souly because of the conditioning, but IMO, no common sense person would want to take a billion shots to the head, midsection, or arms trying to defend him/herself (espescially because nobody really fights unnarmed these days)... though its something one should be prepared for to a degree.

    Truth be told, no one style can prepare one for everything, and not EVERY style can prepare you for everything. Defense is something hard to prepare for, because you can't anticipate everything.

    Now, I want to post one of the most realistic opinions, I think I've seen in awhile, IMO. This is a comment taken from Solomon Kane, a poster at G-faqs;

    "really depends on what your goal is.

    if your goal is self-defence from muggers as a regular joe-
    buy a gun, learn to knife-fight or use one of those tiny metal sticks. (forgot the name- those mini jitte looking things- tiny steel bar only a few inches long). in reality unarmed styles will put you at a disadvantage against a realistic mugging situation- muggers have weapons- (the whole caught by surprise factor is another issue, but you have a better chance against a weapon surprised or not, if you are armed yourself).

    If your goal is to protect yourself in a fight as an average joe- then what everyone else said-
    pick a combatative art rather than a sportative one.

    If your goal is to incapacitate someone without doing too much injury to them-
    (like a bouncer or cop)
    IMO go for a grappling style- it is far easier to control the injury you cause to someone if you are trained to restrain them- rather than beat the hell out of them (although many styles do teach grips, etc.)

    If your goal is to participate in a sport such as boxing or UFC, etc. then obviously you take the sportative style required or that will give you the best advantage under that rule set."
  2. Shug is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 11:02am


     Style: TKD

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    I think I'll also go through the list and OPINIONS <--- (key word) that i did on G-faqs;

    TKD and Karate can teach you some pretty basic fundamentals for defense, and easily help you develop power and rhythm.... IF they are good schools. Alot focus on money, alot focus on sport, and alot focus on both. You would have to do alot of searching around, and ask a good many questions. They are pains in the ass though for that very reason.

    Traditional Jujutsu, if you can find it, would be the best choice IMO. Most schools of Ju-jutsu are VERY no-nonsense, and cut the bull. It covers anything from standup, to ground, to minor and major joint manipuloation, submissions, throws, and at an advanced level, weapons defense (though I still say if a guy has a gun or knife, give'em what he wants. Its never worth your life).

    Judo is decent, but also geared far more towards sport. Not to say the throws or locks taught aren't useful, but defense isn't the focus. Still, check out Judo schools, because some end up being full blown Jujutsu.

    Aikido is ok, but like CMA (chinese martial arts) don't expect to be truly effective until much farther down the line.

    Muay Tai is good foor conditioning and power. Thats about it though. You'de be able to hold yur own in a fight, but there's alot of elements left out.

    Boxing is also good for conditioning and power, but up there with Judo and Muay Tai as far as sport oriented.

    Kick Boxing, same

    Brazilian Ju-Jutsu will teach you how to think and react quickly, but as stated before, I WOULD NOT want to be on the ground when defending myself. Its just a vulnerable position, plain and simple.

    Hapkido is very practical minded, assuming you find a decent place to train. Many schools have become veritable TKD forms training gyms. Usually it focuses on joint manipulation and grappling though.

    Krav Maga is much like Ju-Jutsu, in the fact that its very no-nonsense, and usually cuts straight to defense the moment you start training. Places are hellu hard to find though.

    Escrima, from what I've experianced, is extremely practical, yes, even with unnarmed combat

    Arnis, good with weapons training, though I couldn't tell you much about its unnarmed self defense

    Wing Tsun is extremely effective, espescially down the road. No BS here, and it teaches you to move continually, rather then stringing together singular techniques. There is no pause in your movement, much like any other CMA

    Bagua is unbeleivably slow to learn, I wouldn't take it until a few years after something else, if you even consider taking it. Extremely effective, but extremely slow to develop

    Xing Yi will help you develop incredible power, as well as a method of dealing with your opponant quickly. Also takes mass amounts of time

    Tai Chi will teach you how to relax, and let your movements flow, lots of power, but once again, takes time
  3. Budd is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 11:34am

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    I think the above approach is a bit simplistic when ascribed to specific arts. My overall thought on this subject is simply that if you want to train against specific scenarios that you might encounter and believe you need a method for defending against them, then set up some reality based training to address those needs. If you're looking to become a good fighter, then get in lots of fights (but have good lawyers and health coverage) or find a sport that trains full contact, whether it's grappling, striking or some combination. If you're interested in training for personal development, then figure out what kind of development you're trying to get and go find a school and instructor that emphasizes such a thing.

    I don't think it's as simple to blanketly cover each art the way you did above, but at the same time the basic questions you should ask yourself really aren't that complex.
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 11:46am

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    Well SCARS ofcourse is the answer to it all.

    Sorry I just couldn't stop myself.:p

    Ditto what Budd said.

    I'd just go to the nearest cheapest school that sparred hard, style is less important than the instructor's attitude.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 11:49am

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    Re: Discussion; what, in your opinion, defines an effective self defense style?

    Originally posted by Shug

    what, in your opinion, defines an effective self defense style?
    In what way constitutes "effectiveness?" Surviving? Perhaps. Dominance? Not a chance.

    I know one particular person who would say boxing, souly because of the conditioning, but IMO, no common sense person would want to take a billion shots to the head, midsection, or arms trying to defend him/herself (espescially because nobody really fights unnarmed these days)... though its something one should be prepared for to a degree.
    Try explaining that to the NHB and MMA fighters.

    Truth be told, no one style can prepare one for everything, and not EVERY style can prepare you for everything.
    Yes, styles by their very definition are flawed and full of holes so this hardly comes as a surprise.

    Defense is something hard to prepare for, because you can't anticipate everything.
    Which is exactly why you shouldn't do it. Defense is a reactive frame of mind, therefore the defender is slower to deal with a variable situation.

    If your goal is to protect yourself in a fight as an average joe- then what everyone else said-
    pick a combatative art rather than a sportative one.
    In reality, one "protects" himself by taking the attacker out, which is more of a psychological mindset more than anything else.

    If your goal is to incapacitate someone without doing too much injury to them-
    (like a bouncer or cop)
    IMO go for a grappling style- it is far easier to control the injury you cause to someone if you are trained to restrain them- rather than beat the hell out of them (although many styles do teach grips, etc.)
    If that were true, why do cops beat the crap out of and have to shoot their resisting suspects? Their firearms and billy clubs aren't there for show.
    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 2/19/2004 11:57am at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  6. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 12:00pm

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    It must have expensive video tapes that I can buy.
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  7. LOVED2BLOVED is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 12:01pm

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     Style: Gracie Barra JJ

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    judo can help you
    it has helped me....
  8. Shug is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 12:19pm


     Style: TKD

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    Re: Re: Discussion; what, in your opinion, defines an effective self defense style?

    Originally posted by Kungfoolss
    In what way constitutes "effectiveness?" Surviving? Perhaps. Dominance? Not a chance.



    Try explaining that to the NHB and MMA fighters.



    Yes, styles by their very definition are flawed and full of holes so this hardly comes as a surprise.



    Which is exactly why you shouldn't do it. Defense is a reactive frame of mind, therefore the defender is slower to deal with a variable situation.



    In reality, one "protects" himself by taking the attacker out, which is more of a psychological mindset more than anything else.



    If that were true, why do cops beat the crap out of and have to shoot their resisting suspects? Their firearms and billy clubs aren't there for show.
    Yes, but to address your second point, NHB and MMA fighters are BOTH sport oriented no? Fights generally don't last along time, espescially when there's no restriction as far as, say, choking or groin shots.

    On your fourth point; I was reffering to defense as a general term ^_^ I adamantly beleive a good offfense can be the best defense.

    On your fifth point, I agree to an extenet, but when it comes down to sport vs. practical defense application, in most sports, there are specific goals right? With Olympic TKD, all participants are well trained and very capable of landing their kicks, but they'd get knocked on there ass trying to fight that way outside the mat. With BJJ, you initially use the ground to overwhelm your opponant, which is displayed quite frequently in UFC; when defending yourself on the street, your gonna get smacked in the head or elbowed/kneed in the face trying to shoot someone, and even if successful, you aren't gonna walk away feeling to good. Pain is pretty much a disadvantage.

    As to your last point, thats only if your goal is to incapacitate someone without hurting THEM. Your own protection was not involved, so I agree, it wouldn't be the most practical mindset.
  9. Shug is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 12:20pm


     Style: TKD

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    Originally posted by LOVED2BLOVED
    judo can help you
    it has helped me....
    Never said it couldn't, in fact I'm looking into Judo classes. I was merely pointing out that self preservation and defense were not really its focus, as its an offensive sport
  10. Shug is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 12:21pm


     Style: TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and actually, I just put those styles up for example and discussion material.
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