Is the Bujinkan a CULT?

**Styygens** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 2:55pm

It's been one of those weeks...

**shotfghter** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 2:58pm

Ok then I apologize, I just watched videos, and did a bit of research on hatsumi and hes known as one of the legitimate "ninja" trainers. You assumed I was baiting so i got a little defensive. I see skill, I see confident motion, and technique but I guess my eye is untrained.

Still I fail to see how its a cult, bujikan in the search area has bought up 19 pages. I'll countinue looking but can anyone elaborate further as to why bujikan is percived as a cult rather than saying the quality of the instruction/or practitioners is bad?

**Kung-Fu Joe** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 3:06pm

Originally Posted by shotfghter

Ok then I apologize, I just watched videos, and did a bit of research on hatsumi and hes known as one of the legitimate "ninja" trainers. You assumed I was baiting so i got a little defensive. I see skill, I see confident motion, and technique but I guess my eye is untrained.

Still I fail to see how its a cult, bujikan in the search area has bought up 19 pages. I'll countinue looking but can anyone elaborate further as to why bujikan is percived as a cult rather than saying the quality of the instruction/or practitioners is bad?

The Booj is thought of as cultish for a number of reasons. Just a smattering of these include:

- Zealous and unquestioning support of Hatsumi
- Extreme refusal to provide proof of koryu historicity
- Extreme encouragement to train at Hombu in Japan
- Dismisssal of arguments without providing counterpoint
- Ingrained sense of superiority despite lack of proof

**Styygens** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 3:19pm

Originally Posted by shotfghter

Still I fail to see how its a cult, bujikan in the search area has bought up 19 pages. I'll countinue looking but can anyone elaborate further as to why bujikan is percived as a cult rather than saying the quality of the instruction/or practitioners is bad?

You're not the only shark in the waters. I actually knew you made a legitimate post.

Most of the people I've dealt with have been well-balanced, if quirky. But there are groups...

Basically it all stems from a "cult of personality" surrounding Hatsumi. There's also the whole instance on taking the alleged history of the ryuha on faith. We either believe Hatsumi is telling the truth, or we don't. You're either among the faithful, or you're an outsider. There are some groups who push some strange metaphysics, mysticism, or spiritual practices in conjunction with the martial arts.

Google searches will turn a lot of it up...

BTW: I have seen the entire episode, and cringed through it all. Most of the groups the HW guys trained with were not affiliated with the Booj. The knife guy was a riot. The shuriken teacher was a legitimate koryu (which one escapes me right now). I've also seen the Bujinkan members' post-mortem of the episode in various Booj forums online, and cringed again...

**shotfghter** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 3:48pm

I actually liked the knife guy, I've spent countless moments at my job wondering if I could really handle an attacker with a knife. No doubt the part where they put on goggles was pretty funny, but it if I wanted to be a street fighting reality guy I would take up knife training.

Ok, the reverence of Hatsumi is pretty bad and it does sound like a cult - but I still think it's a respectable martial art, or martial art system.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 4:11pm

What sort of occupation are you in that you worry about handling knife attacks?

Not that I'm mocking you, I just went through a work-related training seminar for the subject.

**shotfghter** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 4:18pm

I used work in retail and stand around all day. I came to this forum and asked myself whether my martial art works for me, and would I really be able to handle an attacker coming to kill me during all the free time I had. Hand to hand, A guy with a knife probably scared me the most. Well it still does.

**Lindz** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 5:21pm

Originally Posted by shotfghter

Ok then I apologize, I just watched videos, and did a bit of research on hatsumi and hes known as one of the legitimate "ninja" trainers. You assumed I was baiting so i got a little defensive. I see skill, I see confident motion, and technique but I guess my eye is untrained.

Still I fail to see how its a cult, bujikan in the search area has bought up 19 pages. I'll countinue looking but can anyone elaborate further as to why bujikan is percived as a cult rather than saying the quality of the instruction/or practitioners is bad?

You see someone with over a decade of experience against a guy with less than a week, 5 days, of training. And it's not a complete schooling. Jason actually managed to hold his own.

**SharinganUser** · Posted On: 5/05/2010 8:04pm

I'm just curious what behavior in particular the OP witnessed.

I believe he had reason to be suspicious, I just want to know what made him suspicious.

This \/

The Booj is thought of as cultish for a number of reasons. Just a smattering of these include:

- Zealous and unquestioning support of Hatsumi
- Extreme refusal to provide proof of koryu historicity
- Extreme encouragement to train at Hombu in Japan
- Dismisssal of arguments without providing counterpoint
- Ingrained sense of superiority despite lack of proof

In the conversation they were giving evasive answers in stead of answering directly. When pressed for straight forward answers they asked for credientials and tried to discredit me and the other people who were not on their "side." After that they decided to accuse me and several other posters of having an agenda, and then 5 ninjas that I wasn't talking to, or have ever talked to, decided to lurk on my profile to confirm their paranoid delusions.

All this bullshit because they couldn't answer one simple question about the bujinkan.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

I went on this website and ticked off atleast 8/15 boxs. Though someone who is more knowlegable could give a more accurate score.

**pokeroo** · Posted On: 5/06/2010 12:13am

I am a recovering ninja. I don't think my Dojo was particularly cultish, at least compared to what I've heard about the BJK on this site. However there were some aspects that seemed cultish while I was there.
Against
at my dojo, the students did cross train. some had judo, kickboxing, karate, aikido experience that I know of.
The students seemed to be fairly independent. Only 1 seemed not all there.

For
-The students saved up to send my instructor to Japan for Christmas, as well as buy him a stereo as a present. Our teacher was really cool, but come on.
-Rates were fairly expensive, but not extrordinarily.
-Students would save up to go to Tai Kai's, events where top instructors or hatsumi would be teaching. I can't remember what rates were but I think it was like $300 for a weekend seminar.

Mostly I'm glad I'm out now because I was learning low percentage moves, my wrist was sore from constantly being put into wristlocks, I often had trouble practicing enough to advance due to lack of training partners at the same level and lack of structure. Also, I initially thought I'd learn valuable self defense. Most of the stuff cannot be applied to a modern combat situation.