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  1. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2010 8:47am

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    I can only shout about physics: foot-pounds are units of energy, not force (otherwise what would pounds be?); you can't alter momentum transfer by reducing impulse (the bad guy won't fly back no matter how elastic the collision, unless you fly back the same distance when firing the gun); you consider the speed, not acceleration, of a projectile (or else they would cause undamage, because they only decelerate after leaving the gun); blah blah blah maybe you're a chemical engineer?

    Otherwise good article! I'm-a go get a Desert Eagle will 30 rounds of .22

    Disconnect between vernacular and strict correctness of nomenclature!

    -Foot pounds is how firearms people measure muzzle energy, and therefore force of impact. It ain't right, but it's what happens. The physics part was long and boring enough in this article.

    -By definition, Impulse is the change in momentum. If you consider the interaction between the shooter and the discharge of the firearm as a collision, then the difference of mass between the shooter and the projectile ensures that no matter how big the impulse, the smaller mass particle will always be the one to go flying. Not the shooter. The shootee, for the same reasons, will suffer deformation and material failure instead of going flying.

    -Saying that HE won't go flying back because YOU won't go flying back is as much an oversimplification as F=MA or referring to ft-lbs as force. Since the shooter can be said to be experiencing an elastic collision and the shootee an inelastic collision.I totally understand what you are saying, though and my dynamic systems and vector calculus is very rusty; but I had to draw a line somewhere with how deep I went into the physics.

    -There is no such thing as deceleration. Any delta V is an acceleration by definition. Since vectors have both magnitude and direction, the reduction in speed, and the arcing of the bullet's path are both still considered an acceleration. Always back to vector calculus with you!!!

    All good points.
    Last edited by Scrapper; 5/05/2010 9:22am at .
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  2. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2010 1:25pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Scrapper, I think I love you now. All the physics stuff was wonderful (and I honestly wish there was more of it), and the "de Soto" comment gave me the biggest laugh I've had in months.

    On the other hand, I hate you for tempting me to buy 500 rounds of .45ACP rather than fix my computer. My lovely 1911 has only had 30 rounds of ball through it (plus one CCI shotshell for a function test), and it hasn't seen the range in almost a year. I knew I'd have this problem if I bought a gun, but I had no idea it would be this bad.

    Oh yeah, and you should probably mention that FMJ is sometimes referred to as "ball."
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cuz FastPass on Indiana Jones was like being a ghetto rock star.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiko
    But graffiti isn't a bowl of fruit...
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  3. Aaron_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2010 6:49pm


     Style: Judo/Stronglifts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    F=MA is always a slippery slope. It was either write a 10-page paper on Newtonian physics or go with the simple vernacular for effect. ANd you are right...i juxtaposed my elastic and inelastic collision, dammit. Fixing now you bastard.
    sorry lol... i read your article about 15 minutes after i left a 3 hour physics lab.
  4. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2010 8:35pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    Disconnect between vernacular and strict correctness of nomenclature!

    -Foot pounds is how firearms people measure muzzle energy, and therefore force of impact. It ain't right, but it's what happens. The physics part was long and boring enough in this article.

    -By definition, Impulse is the change in momentum. If you consider the interaction between the shooter and the discharge of the firearm as a collision, then the difference of mass between the shooter and the projectile ensures that no matter how big the impulse, the smaller mass particle will always be the one to go flying. Not the shooter. The shootee, for the same reasons, will suffer deformation and material failure instead of going flying.

    -Saying that HE won't go flying back because YOU won't go flying back is as much an oversimplification as F=MA or referring to ft-lbs as force. Since the shooter can be said to be experiencing an elastic collision and the shootee an inelastic collision.I totally understand what you are saying, though and my dynamic systems and vector calculus is very rusty; but I had to draw a line somewhere with how deep I went into the physics.

    -There is no such thing as deceleration. Any delta V is an acceleration by definition. Since vectors have both magnitude and direction, the reduction in speed, and the arcing of the bullet's path are both still considered an acceleration. Always back to vector calculus with you!!!

    All good points.
    -I just didn't like seeing "ft-lbs of force" because muzzle energy only tells you the force of impact if you know exactly how quickly the bullet decelerates on impact, which you mentioned varies widely. And even then it's several steps of math away...

    -You're right about the impulse-momentum relation (my bad). Except for "the longer the force is applied, the smaller the impulse". If the bullet comes to rest, the impulse imparted is the same regardless of how quickly it decelerates (I = the entire momentum of the travelling bullet). What you meant to get at was that the peak force is smaller if the impulse is more spread out over time.

    -So, you're right that, depending on the collision, the shootee might receive less impulse than the shooter (if the bullet over-penetrates), or as much as double (if he's Superman, and the bullet bounces backwards at full speed). But if the bullet comes to rest in the shootee, then the momentum change is identical for both parties. I just meant that he stays put because of his greater mass, as you mentioned above, not because of the inelasticity, which you implied in the article.

    -About acceleration, I just got muddled in your mixing of talk about velocity and acceleration. I thought you were talking about the acceleration of the bullet in the barrel and air mattering, instead of just the acceleration caused by the collision.

    -Let's discuss the quantum-tunneling effects of teflon-coated tachyon bullets!
  5. Aaron_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2010 10:00pm


     Style: Judo/Stronglifts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    -I just didn't like seeing "ft-lbs of force" because muzzle energy only tells you the force of impact if you know exactly how quickly the bullet decelerates on impact, which you mentioned varies widely. And even then it's several steps of math away...

    -You're right about the impulse-momentum relation (my bad). Except for "the longer the force is applied, the smaller the impulse". If the bullet comes to rest, the impulse imparted is the same regardless of how quickly it decelerates (I = the entire momentum of the travelling bullet). What you meant to get at was that the peak force is smaller if the impulse is more spread out over time.

    -So, you're right that, depending on the collision, the shootee might receive less impulse than the shooter (if the bullet over-penetrates), or as much as double (if he's Superman, and the bullet bounces backwards at full speed). But if the bullet comes to rest in the shootee, then the momentum change is identical for both parties. I just meant that he stays put because of his greater mass, as you mentioned above, not because of the inelasticity, which you implied in the article.

    -About acceleration, I just got muddled in your mixing of talk about velocity and acceleration. I thought you were talking about the acceleration of the bullet in the barrel and air mattering, instead of just the acceleration caused by the collision.

    -Let's discuss the quantum-tunneling effects of teflon-coated tachyon bullets!
    Scrapper was correct in his statement about ft.-lbs being the measurement of force commonly used to describe bullets. Sort of how you could measure forces split into 3space vectors in Newtons. it sounds like what you were talking about was pressure, or force divided by an area, resulting in a Psi measurement.

    Also, based on the shape of the bullet, the air temperature, the average density of the target, and in long distance cases, the rotation of the earth, it is entirely possible to calculate how much force would be exerted on the target. however, this would be very complicated to the point where it's not even worth calculating.

    Scrapper was also correct in saying that there is no such thing as deceleration. acceleration is a vector quantity, having both magnitude and direction. what you are talking about is acceleration of a negative value based on the idea that in your shooting coordinate system, the bullets flight path would be in the positive i direction.

    And acceleration is the derivative of velocity with respect to time, making Scrapper's statement about acceleration being a change in velocity over time correct.

    Don't even get started on quantum mechanics...
  6. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2010 12:05am


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_ View Post
    Scrapper was correct in his statement about ft.-lbs being the measurement of force commonly used to describe bullets. Sort of how you could measure forces split into 3space vectors in Newtons. it sounds like what you were talking about was pressure, or force divided by an area, resulting in a Psi measurement.
    Newtons are a unit of force, foot-pounds aren't; Scrapper even mentioned that. It's like you're too busy listing random physics facts and agreeing with what you think he said to read his posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_ View Post
    Also, based on the shape of the bullet, the air temperature, the average density of the target, and in long distance cases, the rotation of the earth, it is entirely possible to calculate how much force would be exerted on the target. however, this would be very complicated to the point where it's not even worth calculating.
    I was saying that muzzle energy doesn't lead to an easy calculation of impact force. You seem to agree. Are you practicing typing, or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_ View Post
    Scrapper was also correct in saying that there is no such thing as deceleration. acceleration is a vector quantity, having both magnitude and direction. what you are talking about is acceleration of a negative value based on the idea that in your shooting coordinate system, the bullets flight path would be in the positive i direction.
    Deceleration is negative acceleration, with fewer syllables. Saying it doesn't exist is like saying that recessions don't exist...only negative boom-times! Valleys are un-mountains! Girls have minus cocks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_ View Post
    And acceleration is the derivative of velocity with respect to time, making Scrapper's statement about acceleration being a change in velocity over time correct.
    Do you even know why you are typing these things? It's like you're trying to list everything you remember from high school physics. Scrapper didn't even bother writing that out, but if he did, why would you bother recording your agreement? I'm going back to the "typing practice" theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_ View Post
    Don't even get started on quantum mechanics...
    Why don't you get started on regular mechanics first you drunkard

    Oh no, am I that guy who just got annoyed at 1 AM about bad physics on the internet? I'm going to rehab now
  7. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2010 8:22am

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is the type of contentiousness I just KNEW this article could generate!!!
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  8. Aaron_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2010 9:17am


     Style: Judo/Stronglifts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    Newtons are a unit of force, foot-pounds aren't; Scrapper even mentioned that. It's like you're too busy listing random physics facts and agreeing with what you think he said to read his posts.



    I was saying that muzzle energy doesn't lead to an easy calculation of impact force. You seem to agree. Are you practicing typing, or what?



    Deceleration is negative acceleration, with fewer syllables. Saying it doesn't exist is like saying that recessions don't exist...only negative boom-times! Valleys are un-mountains! Girls have minus cocks!



    Do you even know why you are typing these things? It's like you're trying to list everything you remember from high school physics. Scrapper didn't even bother writing that out, but if he did, why would you bother recording your agreement? I'm going back to the "typing practice" theory.



    Why don't you get started on regular mechanics first you drunkard

    Oh no, am I that guy who just got annoyed at 1 AM about bad physics on the internet? I'm going to rehab now
    Sorry dude, I wasn't trying to upset you or anything, but I did lose a lot of points on an exam about a week and a half ago for using "deceleration" in a problem.

    chill out... it's only mechanics.

    also, i don't remember jack from high school physics. i pretty much had to relearn mechanics this trimester using calc instead of trig, and for whatever reason, calc used in physics seems more confusing that calc used in calc.
  9. Aaron_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2010 9:25am


     Style: Judo/Stronglifts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    This is the type of contentiousness I just KNEW this article could generate!!!
    this is all your fault Scrapper... trolling us into fighting about physics using an article on bullets. :-/
  10. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2010 9:34am

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don;t blame me. the physics of bullet wounds are insanely complicated. It's an exercise in frustration that NOBODY has really been able to distill to something universal and cohesive.

    Every bullet, trajectory, human body, and wound is unique. It makes meaningful analysis incredibly difficult, and even if you could do all themath, you will still never REALLY know if your bullet is gonna drop the bad guy or not.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
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