How do you define martial arts?

[t3h d3adly]

Using a gun as a hammer doesn't change the purpose that the gun is designed for, it just makes you an idiot.
For the same reason taking up Judo to make you a better human being doesn't change the purpose of Judo which is to throw planets at people.

BEST ADVICE EVAAAARRRR.

athough you could really "blast" and "bang" in some nails, it would almost be like shooting fish in a barrel....really....ok...i'll leave now.after I drive the nail into the center wood mass

Dies of embarrassment.

[DunkelAnanas]

Why does everyone want to over mystify the martial arts?

If you were training to Run would you be asking questions like this? "What is running? Is it still running if I'm running up hill? Is it running if I hop every third step? Is running best for marathons or sprinting? If I run in a triathalon will it make me worse at jogging? Should running build character?"

Martial arts are far more complicated than running. Even still there are still subdivisions and different definitions for running. There's free running, marathon running, cross country running. A cross country runner and a sprinter both run, but are their goals the same? Just because one trains for short distances and one trains for long distances is one less of a runner?

Stop being stupid. Martial Arts is a physical activity. It's designed to make you good at Imposing Your Will on other people. If it doesn't work to do that then it's not a martial art.
Character is something that you develop from hard work, sacrifice, and sweat. You can build character digging ditches, lifting weights, practicing a martial art, building orhpanages, etc... etc... the development of "character" is a side effect of those things, not the primary purpose.

Why is "imposing your will" important to this debate? Is that how you define martial arts or combat? Is that what you believe underlies all combat?

What is Combat? It's something you should look up in the nearest dictionary instead of asking stupid questions.

Wikipedia has a decent article on "combat".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat

You are right, this is a good article on combat. Notice there are several different types of combat listed in this article, from military to hand-to-hand. Do martial arts refer to both types of combat?

You want to do it for a reason other than imposing your will on another human being that's fine, but that is still the purpose of what you're learning even if you don't plan on using it for that.
Using a gun as a hammer doesn't change the purpose that the gun is designed for, it just makes you an idiot.
For the same reason taking up Judo to make you a better human being doesn't change the purpose of Judo which is to throw planets at people.

I use a gun for a hammer all the time. It's called a nail gun.

What is martial? What is art?
The military is clearly objective and overt, through combat, through fighting, but art is subjective, individuals are moved on a personal level, often covert, their soul being moved but their external unchanged. Combat, aggressive. Soul, passive. A soft tannin hits the palate late, joined briefly by forest berries and ending with dark mature grape, tempered by the oak of this vintage.




Just fucking train.

If you want to "just fucking train", why are you on a web forum dedicated to discussing martial arts? This is valuable training time you are wasting.

[Kintanon]

Martial arts are far more complicated than running. Even still there are still subdivisions and different definitions for running. There's free running, marathon running, cross country running. A cross country runner and a sprinter both run, but are their goals the same? Just because one trains for short distances and one trains for long distances is one less of a runner?

Notice the common theme in all of those activities? It's RUNNING. That's all running. The purpose of running is to get from place A to place B. That is the purpose. If you do it to derive a secondary benefit, or place additional constraints on yourself that doesn't change the core purpose of running.

Why is "imposing your will" important to this debate? Is that how you define martial arts or combat? Is that what you believe underlies all combat?

Yes. Imposing your Will on another human being is always the purpose of all combat, armed and unarmed.

I use a gun for a hammer all the time. It's called a nail gun.

I assume you think this makes you clever?
If you are using your nail gun as a hammer then you aren't being very efficient are you since the purpose of a nail GUN is to launch a projectile at high velocity and if you are using it to HAMMER a nail into a board instead then you aren't really getting the most out of your tool are you?
Just as if you are training Martial Arts in order to develop your Spiritual Awareness or something like that you aren't getting the most out of your tool because you're not using it as it was intended to be used.

[battlefields]

If you want to "just fucking train", why are you on a web forum dedicated to discussing martial arts? This is valuable training time you are wasting.

No. Responding to this vague faux philosophical attempt at definition is valuable work time I am wasting.
Training comes tonight, after work, or even before, depending on whether I can convert insightful posts in the technique fora to a relevant mental image to be repeated in a type of mental training. This is one very good reason to be on a website discussing martial arts.

[Styygens]

In another thread, I proposed this definition:

"Contact competition involving two or more actors in which the primary objective is to directly and physically dominate the opponent(s) using techniques applied to the human body."

I'll propose it again, but I'm not claiming it's perfect.

Oh, and by "competition" I don't mean to limit the scenario to a sporting contest under rules. The "prize" could be anything from your very life to the simple joy of horsing around. I think the more important part of the definition is the physical domination by using techniques applied directly to the body.

Of course, in that other thread, I proposed this definition after pointing out that definitional arguments are always a morass...

[helmutlvx]

How do define?



Book good hit with. SMASH!

[It is Fake]

Martial arts are far more complicated than running.

Yes, because we made them that way. They really are the same in their differences.

If you want to "just fucking train", why are you on a web forum dedicated to discussing martial arts? This is valuable training time you are wasting.

You know this is Basically Godwin's Law right?

[gregaquaman]

Originally Posted by Kintanon
Using a gun as a hammer doesn't change the purpose that the gun is designed for, it just makes you an idiot.
For the same reason taking up Judo to make you a better human being doesn't change the purpose of Judo which is to throw planets at people.


I dont agree with this because then people would learn to shoot only to kill people/things.

As far as martial arts is concerned It just seems too hard to define so we break it down to martial meaning combat which is too hard to define and arts which is to hard to define.
I think I will start on something easier like why reading the Koran makes you want to blow yourself up.

or get drunk

[It is Fake]

Originally Posted by Kintanon
[I]Using a gun as a hammer doesn't change the purpose that the gun is designed for, it just makes you an idiot.
For the same reason taking up Judo to make you a better human being doesn't change the purpose of Judo which is to throw planets at people.[/
[I]
[I]
[I]I dont agree with this because then people would learn to shoot only to kill people/things.[
[I]
[I]As far as martial arts is concerned It just seems too hard to define so we break it down to martial meaning combat which is too hard to define and arts which is to hard to define.[
[I]I think I will start on something easier like why reading the Koran makes you want to blow yourself up.[

[I]or get drunk[

In the time it took you to do all of that editing, you could have just hit the quote button and posted a response.

[DunkelAnanas]

Notice the common theme in all of those activities? It's RUNNING. That's all running. The purpose of running is to get from place A to place B. That is the purpose. If you do it to derive a secondary benefit, or place additional constraints on yourself that doesn't change the core purpose of running.

Yes, but there are different ways to run. These are integral to running sports. And if the core purpose of martial arts is fighting or combat, and the additional constraints being the rulesets you are training/fighting under, at what point due the constraints alter what you are doing from being a martial art to something else?

Yes. Imposing your Will on another human being is always the purpose of all combat, armed and unarmed.

Are all instances when one person imposes their will on another combat?

I assume you think this makes you clever?
If you are using your nail gun as a hammer then you aren't being very efficient are you since the purpose of a nail GUN is to launch a projectile at high velocity and if you are using it to HAMMER a nail into a board instead then you aren't really getting the most out of your tool are you?
Just as if you are training Martial Arts in order to develop your Spiritual Awareness or something like that you aren't getting the most out of your tool because you're not using it as it was intended to be used.

[/quote]
One way of defining the verb "to hammer is "to hit". When I use a nail gun, I am hitting a nail using the nail gun and driving it into a surface. The way I am hitting it may not be the same motion as a hammer, but I am still hitting it.

No. Responding to this vague faux philosophical attempt at definition is valuable work time I am wasting.
Training comes tonight, after work, or even before, depending on whether I can convert insightful posts in the technique fora to a relevant mental image to be repeated in a type of mental training. This is one very good reason to be on a website discussing martial arts.

So if your purpose for being on this site is the "technical fora" why are you wasting your employer's and/or client's time posting in "vague faux philosophical attempts at definition" in YMAS?

In another thread, I proposed this definition:

"Contact competition involving two or more actors in which the primary objective is to directly and physically dominate the opponent(s) using techniques applied to the human body."

I'll propose it again, but I'm not claiming it's perfect.

Oh, and by "competition" I don't mean to limit the scenario to a sporting contest under rules. The "prize" could be anything from your very life to the simple joy of horsing around. I think the more important part of the definition is the physical domination by using techniques applied directly to the body.

Of course, in that other thread, I proposed this definition after pointing out that definitional arguments are always a morass...

I like your definition. I would also have to agree that definitional arguments are a morass, but this is just something I've been curious about. I wondered if the members of this forum have actually given thought as to why they train in the martial arts. What their motivations for training were, and I believe this has a lot to do with how they define the martial arts. I will try to outline why I asked some of the questions I proposed at the beginning of this thread with personal examples that show the various ways the martial arts have been interpreted to me.

For the last year I've studied judo and have found I really enjoy it. What I enjoy most is the friendly competition, learning new moves and finding ways to employ them into contests against fellow students. In fact competing with fellow judoka has become the main focus of my training.

This is why I asked the question "what is combat?" Is competition combat?

At the beginning of my martial arts career (at the tender age of 12), I studied Kyuki-do, one of the numerous tae kwon do bastardizations. One of the main things my instructor stressed was "character development." Looking back at this class I realize it was basically a relatively-inexpensive ($35 a month) themed afternoon daycare, yet there was still training for combat, in the form of light contact sparring and drills. This is not uncommon in martial arts schools, both in children and adult classes.

This is why I asked what role character development has in the martial arts.

Many years ago I made the unfortunate decision to study shaolin kempo. Rarely did we spar and most of what we did were unrealistic drills. My judo training is far more effective in confrontations, yet the focus of shaolin kempo is far more "combat oriented", being totally focused on "the street."

This is why I ask what role effectiveness has in defining martial arts. Does a system need to be effective in combat for it to be considered a martial art?