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  1. #11

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See, knowing you are wrong is the first step in knowing you are right. Your story reminds me of Dune, when the sleeper awakened. :P

    I imagine how painful the truth must be with a person who devoted a large part of it's life to an art which deceived him at a moment. I guess you can be blind to it or kick yourself and adapt. Just a question of attitude.

    Good luck for your future training.

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    BJJ noob, MT noob
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    OP:

    Curious how long you trained wing chun and where?
    I trained Wing Chun for about 2 years. I'd prefer not to name the school, because I would never want to cast it in a negative light. As far as WC schools go, it's one of the finest I've ever seen, and the SiFu is legitimate, skilled, and a great person. The shortcomings I feel are with the art itself, not the instruction I was exposed to.

  3. #13
    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld supporting member
    Tom Kagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    New York, NY USA
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    5,600
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    Taai Si Ji Kung Fu
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixEyePunch View Post
    I trained Wing Chun for about 2 years. I'd prefer not to name the school, because I would never want to cast it in a negative light. As far as WC schools go, it's one of the finest I've ever seen, and the SiFu is legitimate, skilled, and a great person. The shortcomings I feel are with the art itself, not the instruction I was exposed to.
    First, I don't believe you. Second, you now have an obligation to name it.

    Spoiler:
    Prediction: About two years after you start your next art, you will reach a similar state of disenfranchisement, though perhaps not for the same reasons.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
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    116
    Style
    The grapply boxing
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to take what you know and reap the benefits from it, I'd have to suggest finding some oldschool Jeet Kune Do.

  5. #15

    Join Date
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    First, I don't believe you. Second, you now have an obligation to name it.

    Spoiler:
    Prediction: About two years after you start your next art, you will reach a similar state of disenfranchisement, though perhaps not for the same reasons.
    I'm not asking anyone believe anything. I'm not selling anything, I'm not claiming to be a Wing Chun master, I don't have anything to prove. I'm just stating my opinion. Believe or disbelieve as you see fit.

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Cincy, Ohio
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    938
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    TKD, judo, MT noob
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    First, I don't believe you. Second, you now have an obligation to name it.

    Spoiler:
    Prediction: About two years after you start your next art, you will reach a similar state of disenfranchisement, though perhaps not for the same reasons.
    Why would you say that? It is the prevailing thought on bullshido that the majority of chunners know neither how to fight nor understand why that is so. I had a similar revelation about TKD when my striking was woefully inadequate for my first MMA bout. I still got plenty of useful things from it, but i needed more to accomplish my goal of being a complete fighter. Why would this be any different?

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Raleigh/ Durham, NC
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    Wing Chun
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixEyePunch View Post
    What initially made me start doubting the art was the fact that I felt like the stance was totally unnatural and served no purpose. The goat stance that the forms are done in is uncomfortable, unweidly, and totally without any positive benefit in any way. I would be told that someone very good at the stance couldn't be pushed over in it, which was obviously total horseshit. A solid shove to the chest will make almost any Wing Chun practitioner topple backwards. I began thinking to myself, if the stance is useless, what else is wrong in the system? When I watched Muay Thai guys or even western boxers, I would look at their footwork and consider how much more sense it made than Wing Chun.


    Before I ask my questions please note that I am not the defender of all things Wing Chun. I am very biased and often dont like other Wing Chun styles for various reasons. I as most people here think Wing Chun is not good for people in general but for much different reasons that your typical Wing Chun basher.

    What I want to know is did you ever talk to your Sifu about your understanding of what he was teaching you? Why is your stance so unpractical and why do you think that if you stand in a goat stance you will have front to back stability? 2 years is a long time for me to understand why you would go along with things that seem outlandish. I am sure you have more conflicting principals than you mentioned.

    You stated you feel your teacher is good and the style itself is problematic. How can he be good (in what sense is he good) practicing and teaching a style so riddled with faults?


    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixEyePunch View Post
    It was a painful event, when I finally stopped thinking of Wing Chun as a superior fighting form with sound, scientific principles that would reward the dedicated practitioner with the ability to defend against larger, stronger opponents. I could no longer fool myself. The very intellectual nature that initially attracted me to Wing Chun was what forced me to eventually understand its shortcomings and move on. I'll probably always have a soft spot in my heart for it, but I'll be moving on to better, more useful things

    I am glad you have become self-aware of what and why you are training.

  8. #18

    Join Date
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post
    What I want to know is did you ever talk to your Sifu about your understanding of what he was teaching you? Why is your stance so unpractical and why do you think that if you stand in a goat stance you will have front to back stability? 2 years is a long time for me to understand why you would go along with things that seem outlandish. I am sure you have more conflicting principals than you mentioned.
    My statements are stronger now than they were in my head back then. Wing Chun seems to focus too much on the weight distribution and "groundedness" of the stances rather than speed and mobility. Foot dragging and heel rotation seemed really counterintuitive to me and despite the theory I was taught (and I did ask the reasoning behind the stances), the stances never really felt agile or practical to me.

    Part of the reason that I stuck around as long as I did was because I really enjoyed the class, the people I trained with, and my instructor. Part of it was also because I thought maybe I hadn't mastered the techniques to a degree of usability. It was difficult to discard something I felt like I had really connected with intellectually.

    Quote Originally Posted by chainpunch View Post
    You stated you feel your teacher is good and the style itself is problematic. How can he be good (in what sense is he good) practicing and teaching a style so riddled with faults?
    Someone can have an excellent background and teaching method regardless of the validity of the subject. I would recommend the school in an instant to someone interested in Wing Chun (though I would give my general opinion on its effectiveness as a fighting style).

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Working out
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tao.jonez View Post
    I'm a bit of an oddball in that I like some Chunnery used outside its normal applications. In gi-grappling for example I use bong sau, lop sau, type movements to get to the collar or neck. I use some basic trapping when hand and grip fighting. It's not really T3h Chun, but the principals are still there.

    I love to sprinkle in some wing chun stuff when I'm boxing, too. People typically don't know what to do with it (simple traps, lopsau then jab, etc.) If they have a clue how to box well, the chun is pretty useless, but it's sure fun to tell people that they just got tagged via chunnery.

    Take your time making a choice - visit some classes and take a few free lessons. You'll find something that appeals to you and that works. And try to find a way that you can apply your knowledge to something new. Hopefully you'll realize that your Wing Chun isn't completely useless; rather that it's mostly useless.
    I agree; there are some useful things in wingchun. BUT WHAT?! Well do you know opening the flower in MT? (IDK if thats the right name) Same concept. Pressure on the wrist brings up the elbow? Beautiful stuff and you should keep it in your pocket. What to discard
    as you said
    Stance
    chi sao (fun as **** though)
    kicks
    not being able to bob and weave
    Just be lucky you didn't learn the hard way like I over here.
    :3some:

    Another thing I can relate to is how hard it was leaving the Chun. My teacher Mr. Nearing was like a second father to me at one point and really looked after me, he also did BJJ (not entirely well but good enough).

  10. #20
    Larus marinus's Avatar
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    Aug 2009
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OVER 1 page of discussion experience at this point and no-one has asked PEP about his opinions on the Anti-Grapple(tm) and the effectiveness of the Anti-Grapple(tm) yet? :la:

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