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  1. Tasman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 6:40am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Historical Question about TMA students

    Not sure where to put this, but I figured this was the best place.

    Back in the olden days when all the TMAs were developed, how did MA students survive (ie, earn money for food))? These days professional fighters (the only guys who can train full time) get paid for fighting/performing in front of crowds.

    Is that what happened back in 1500's China etc as well? People talk about how Asian martial artists practiced every day etc, but how could they afford to? It's not like many people really ever had much leisure time until the last 100 years or so in most cultures.

    I understand some were monks who lived off of donations, but that's only some of them, surely.

    Anyway, I'd appreciate someone who knows some Chinese (or Japanese, or Thai or whatever) history on filling me in.
  2. Sinophile is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 8:49am


     Style: Wujichuan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For the most part the arts were practiced by monks, soldiers and by nobility. There were some professional fighter from outside these classes of people, but relatively few.
    As an aside, many of the stories and legends that people associate with TMA and perpetuate in through outlandish claims were put about by masters who occasionally fought amongst themselves, but far more infrequently than most people seem to believe. The stories and legends allowed them to attract students and draw income from them. Whilst some other classes indulged in daily practise of 'fighting arts', more usually they would perform 'taichi' like routines that were believed to promote longevity and good health rather than give solid foundations for fighting.
  3. MastaFighta is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 9:07am


     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tasman View Post
    Not sure where to put this, but I figured this was the best place.

    Back in the olden days when all the TMAs were developed, how did MA students survive (ie, earn money for food))? These days professional fighters (the only guys who can train full time) get paid for fighting/performing in front of crowds.

    Is that what happened back in 1500's China etc as well? People talk about how Asian martial artists practiced every day etc, but how could they afford to? It's not like many people really ever had much leisure time until the last 100 years or so in most cultures.

    I understand some were monks who lived off of donations, but that's only some of them, surely.

    Anyway, I'd appreciate someone who knows some Chinese (or Japanese, or Thai or whatever) history on filling me in.
    Teaching, working as a bodyguard, security, joining the military, law enforcement, manual labor - pretty much anything they can make use of their skills.
  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 1:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems that in a lot of lineages, a lot of them also doubled as doctors/physicians/herbalists.
  5. Oonjuk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 1:37pm


     Style: Taekkyon/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People learning martial arts in military or school settings would become warriors who would serve the country in war, or as body guards for merchant groups or nobles to fend off bandits, pirates, and other perils. So spending their time to train was important to secure their life during combat as well as their job.

    Commoners who were out of reach from protection of the government due to geographic isolation or any other reasons had to fend for themselves so training martial art was matter of life or death and it was part of their daily life (it wasn't a matter of affording "leisure" time and for commoners, there was really no clear distinction between MAist and regular joe, they all needed some degree of self defence knowledge).

    For monks, martial art could be used as self defence if monestry was to be invaded, but it was used as great means of meditation and self-decipline. However, even if monks practiced MA, they were still monks, whose life was no different from othe non-martial monks.

    By the way, if you were thinking about students in gi doing forms all day at a martial art school that wasn't how it was in 16th century in Chana, Japan, Korea, or any other countries where TMAs originated.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 1:41pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright this is five seconds from trollshido. Citations for your claims please.

    I mean this is getting worse and worse as it goes along.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 4/27/2010 3:07pm at .
  7. Oonjuk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 1:51pm


     Style: Taekkyon/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Deleted: I put it second time by accident
    Last edited by Oonjuk; 4/27/2010 2:02pm at .
  8. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 2:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Talking to folks who have spent time in Chen Village, the story is basically that in the old days you got to:

    a. shovel **** all day

    b. practice taiji and if you managed to get really really good maybe some folks would shovel **** for you in exchange for lessons.

    Leisure time is rare in agricultural economies, but that's part of where time comes from. You'd have a lot more spare time to practice martial arts too if you weren't dicking around on the Internet, going to school to learn things you'll never use, reading books, fucking on the third date, going more than two miles away from wherever mama shat you out, etc.
  9. Oonjuk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 3:41pm


     Style: Taekkyon/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is Fake does have a really good point. Most of my claims are based on non-english sources, so I had to go though wikipedia. Hopefully wiki is good enough source.

    Life of Military or Warrior clans in 16th century:
    -Case of 무가(muga 武家) and 문가 (munga 問家) in Korea.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwageo#...ry_examination
    (Read the section under Literary and Military examination.)
    Muga means martial clan while munga means scholarly clan. Due to gwageo testing systems that seperated the exams under literature and military sections, what happening amongst Korean clans or families of noble class was that few clans started to excel in military examination and become military official for the king while other clans excled in literary examination and become scholars and government officials for the kings and clans started to differentiate into muga and munga. Although there were fewer muga compared to munga (because scholars were more highly regarded than military officials due to Korean Confucianism), they were still of noble class who served the king and got paid by working in military as well as law enforcement.

    -Case of Samurai in Japan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C5%8Dnin
    I am not too sure on Japanese history, but you should read into articles on Samurai clans and ronins (masterless samurai) to see how various MA students from certain -ryu schools or clans (dominantly kenjiutju, I think, don't quote me on that) lived.

    -Reason why commoners needed to practice martial art in 16th century Asia:
    Case in Korea.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_army
    (Just read the section on Japanese invasions of Korea during 16th century.)
    Korean commoners didn't have a proper training in MA school or full time MA training, but they had to pick up martial arts to fend themselves from Japanese invasion when government failed to defend the country. It was matter of life and death at this point.

    Monks Practicing MA:
    -Shaolin!!!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Kung_Fu
    (Read the section under Ming Dynasty (1368-1644))
    I don't think I have much to say about this one :D
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 3:45pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wiki is not a source for Martial arts among many other areas. You need to use multiple different books because, so far, minus Rivington and coco, everything I have heard are versions of myths.
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