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  1. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 4:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sweeps

    OK, here I am. Lets get back on track.

    First, I am not a BJJ/GJJ guy. Yes I have trained with them. Yes, I have fought in matches against them. Same with Sambo.

    I am a Judo guy, period. An old school, Judo guy.

    That said, the subject of sweeps in BJJ/MMA interests me because most of the ones I see have no chance of working. Someone smarter than I should run the numbers like George Weers did in Judo. I'll simply say you sure don't see them in MMA, and they are very rare with out the Gi.

    Why?

    Well, looking at it from a Judo viewpoint I think most sweeps are done as direct attacks, if blocked then that's it. I wonder, and I am just thinking out loud, if the concepts in "Attacking Judo" could be applied here.

    I am thinking perhaps a threat attack (choke or armlock to the left and the right) would create a defense from Uke that would open the sweep?

    The principles of Kuzushi still apply, and are much harder because a person in your guard has a much better base than when standing.

    But post your questions and your video, I will help as best I can...

    ....I'll even try to play nice! :qtank:
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  2. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 4:14pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that what you are talking about here is the reason that the hip bump sweep is one of the highest percentage sweeps at every level of everything. You can easily combo it with guillotine and kimura attempts and move back and forth amongst the three.
    To the point that it's a basic drill in BJJ for that particular sequence of techniques.
    I don't know that I've seen any other such sequences codified and drilled together as a cohesive unit though.
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 4:20pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    I think that what you are talking about here is the reason that the hip bump sweep is one of the highest percentage sweeps at every level of everything. You can easily combo it with guillotine and kimura attempts and move back and forth amongst the three.
    To the point that it's a basic drill in BJJ for that particular sequence of techniques.
    I don't know that I've seen any other such sequences codified and drilled together as a cohesive unit though.
    I think therein lies the problem. There MUST be other combos to put together.

    I would think with a Gi on, my main goal would be to sink a deep inside cross grip. If I get the other side you are choked out. You are going to have to defend against me getting that other side; that defense must open other attacks.

    "Every strength has its own weakness."
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  4. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 4:34pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now that I sit and think about it for a few minutes that's how my Gi game has developed in Jits, I get that cross collar grip and then threaten the cross collar choke, the scissor sweep, and the armbar. I don't think I've ever drilled those three as a cohesive combo though. I'll try to put together a drill Wednesday and see what it looks like.
  5. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 4:50pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe Coach Tripp was getting at the fact that the cross collar grip does not exist in MMA.

    Problems as I see them: most MMA fighters are very defensive from their guard. They are more concerned with mitigating damage than putting their opponent on the defensive. When they do attack, they tend to go for attacks that would end the fight - submissions. Sweeps are seen as "not worth it" because they do not offer an instant win and often have the drawback of exposing your face to strikes moreso than submissions, which usually tie up the top man's arms or render them irrelevant in the case of guillotines.

    I rarely see a fighter who makes his opponent work to hold him down, too. If he's busy trying to keep you flat, he's less likely to be hitting you and more open to submissions, as opposed to someone whose concerns are only holding you still while they hit you. Hip escaping/technical standups are just not attempted enough.


    It's funny, but I would lay good money that we see a lot more sweeps from half guard than full guard in MMA, even though it is an "inferior" position. I speculate that it is because you're *supposed* to be constantly offensive in half guard, and therefore more fighters actually are. It also doesn't have the distraction of tempting the fighters with armbars and triangles.

    Final rant: why do they not open their guard and attack, even when they are down on the judge's card and it's the last round? Getting your guard passed is not the end of the world. Going for the knockout standing up is fine, but if you're losing on the ground, you just hug your opponent and hope he puts himself into a submission?
  6. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 4:59pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, to be fair my no-gi open guard game looks almost exactly like my gi game, I'm just using the back of the neck grip and threatening scissor sweep -> triangle choke -> armbar or working to transition to the overhook and closed guard.

    Caseyboy (Black Belt, bullshido member, my instructor) if he ever drops by could probably explain it really well, but as I understand it and as guys like Zapruder have explained it to me combos are a big part of higher level jits. Using one sub or one sweep to open another one, BUT despite hearing that all the time the only real COMBO I've ever drilled in class is the hipbump -> Kimura -> Guillotine series.
    So I know these sequences exist, just no one is codifying them and using them as drills it seems like. Maybe some of the purple belts will weigh in....
  7. 3moose1 is offline
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    United States Marine.

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 10:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MCMAP, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think a big reason you don't see that many sweeps in MMA, is because there aren't very many people who are ACTIVE from their guard, or as Kintanon put it, just focus solely on sweeps.

    I don't think its necessarily the no-gi factor, because in ADCC, Grappler's Quest, etc you still see tons of sweeps. While its harder to sweep on bottom, no gi, there are still a ton of ways to do it.

    Personally, I think everyone in MMA has focused too much on, "in guard, i can only defense". If we started seeing more active, technical guards, I think we would see the percentage of sweeps attempted, and the percentage of successful sweeps rise drastically.

    PROOF that I'm not a completely useless poster:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...0&postcount=58


    Quote Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce
    3moose1 is correct. Sig THAT, you fucker.

    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101 View Post
    I went out with a delightful young woman who was on a regimen of pills that made her taste of burned onions.
    That is not conducive to passionate cunnilingus, my friend, let me assure you.
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    I agree with moosey
  8. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 11:00pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chaining sweep attempts to submission attempts to sweep attempts etc. from the guard is the only way to succeed against higher level players. Guys with good passing games have superior and harder to break posture. In my experience, throwing a series of moves chained together yields the best results when going for sweeps or submissions from the guard in these cases. It also keeps your opponent from trying to pass your guard if he's busy fending off your offense.

    So yes, in order to have an offensive guard game you need to be able to chain your attacks into a series of moves that flow into one another. Switching directions when attacking in integral to this idea. For example, I fail at the hip bump sweep. As I fall back I am going for the hook sweep in the other direction. If this fails I might try a triangle if they're low, or x-guard if they're high.

    I generally try to have an A, B and C move at the minimum. A is my first attempt, usually a sweep. B is next and typically involves reversing direction, attacking to the left when I was previously going to the right. It might be a sub or a sweep. All that matters is that it flows from A. The C move is for when neither A nor B is working and I've lulled my partner into a rhythm vacillating between the two. C is designed to take him by surprise.

    There is a fourth move, D, in about half of the technique chains in my toolbox. The longer your chain, the more offensive you can be.
  9. CarlosJesena is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2010 11:53pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Lifting+Cardio

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    Problems as I see them: most MMA fighters are very defensive from their guard.
    True. Which is why I love to see big guys with great guards such as Frank Mir and Minotauro. Example would be Nog vs Sylvia, Nog had a SICK half guard sweep to finish there.

    I'm not a 10th planet fanboy but I agree with Joe Rogan when he says that most guys just "deathguard" and try to survive the rest of the round when they end up on their backs in their guard. He made a good point about Shinya Aoki (as much as he is a dumbass) is a good example of what a guard is supposed to look like. When you get in Shinya's guard, he just starts "...lockin **** up!" Dean Lister is another good example of a very active guard. The problem though, with sweeping, I think is that you're not going to be able to go straight for the sweep. Usually when you go for the sweep, you're using both hands and your leg/s which gives the opponent time to punch you.
  10. Ungjaevel is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/14/2010 12:14am

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     Style: BJJ & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i am a big fan of using a chain involving the flower sweep/take the back/armbar routes. There are any number of different ways to trap you opponent's arm with your chest, and once I manage that and securing the grip over their back on their lat, one of the three aforementioned options generally opens up. If you start climbing, a lot of people will push into you, giving you ample momentum to make use of the flower sweep. On the flip side, some people will kick their leg back when they feel you try to underhook it for the sweep, which tends to make taking their back easier and in some cases you can even just hip bump them to mount. If you secure the underhook on their leg and they base out (although this should be extremely hard if you've shifted your hips correctly etc.) you have an armbar/armbar sweep waiting for you.

    I'm curious if anyone else here makes use of a similar chain at all and if you have any observations or useful tidbits.
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