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  1. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2010 6:32am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by perdido88 View Post
    Tai chi or Taijiquan was created by Chen Wan Ting in the Chen Village...
    That is one of the points I am trying to make.
    However, I prefer to take a wider scope of the subject matter.

    If you only take a look at the art as a thing separate from it's region's history, politics, and social settings, you are essentially killing it's context, it's historical and political circumstances, and thus, successfully killing any supporting information you might find to either support or dispute your theories.

    Taijiquan's evolution was as much product of politics and social climate of it's time as anything else. Read up on Douglas Wile, if you will.
    =================
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  2. st-w is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2011 1:22pm

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     Style: kung fu, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry to be a grave digger here, but I found and old link to this thread when it only had 3 pages of replies, so I just finished re-reading [most of] the remaining 3 of the 6 pages.

    The reason I am posting is because...

    The thread starts out claiming the lineages are fake, and then by the end, you are recommending we read Wile (who wrote the secret transmissions). Or are you recommending we read ABOUT Wile?
  3. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2011 8:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Quote Originally Posted by st-w View Post
    The reason I am posting is because...

    The thread starts out claiming the lineages are fake,
    In the beginning I was certain of that fact. Then I wasn't so sure (by the time I got to the court records of Zhang San Feng.) Then again I became certain that the ancient Taoist lineage account was implausable. There is still a lot to be written on the topic, but for the moment I find myself tied up in family and work. More to come soon (I hope.)

    and then by the end, you are recommending we read Wile
    Yes, please read Wile. His account of the actual history and events along with actual written records from those times help paint a far more realistic picture of Taijiquan's synthesis than anything else I have read, and I read a lot (0 social life.)

    (who wrote the secret transmissions).
    Yes, a translation of the earliest available material published by Yang stylists. What about it?

    Or are you recommending we read ABOUT Wile?
    Read Wile. Hope this helps.
    =================
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  4. st-w is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2011 2:39am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: kung fu, MMA

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Hanuman View Post

    Read Wile. Hope this helps.
    I read everything I can. I thought you were saying:

    Since some present false lineages, all lineages must be false.

    I should have read more carefully.
  5. Metsudragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2011 4:13am


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a small tidbit for the guys in this thread

    I went to go meet up with my intro to wushu teacher over at Beijing Sports Uni. He was introducing me to a friend of his that teaches Sanda there, while we were in the building I talked to my teacher about Tang Hao, and eventually asked him about Zhang Sanfeng. He immediately told me that the Zhang Sanfeng story was "complete bullshit" in english. He's doing his dissertation on chinese wushu at BSU, and he's using Tang Hao's works as part of the dissertation, and he said that not a single bit of research has shown him proof that Zhang Sanfeng ever did any martial arts. The only thing my teacher could verify was that he was a living person, and a monk at Wudangshan, but not anywhere near what the legends surrounding him would suggest.
  6. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2011 9:56am

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     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Frankly, even the existance of Zhang San Feng is highly dubious. As I have already covered, there is more than enough cause to suspect the creation of the "mysterious holy man" myth to cover up Emperor Yongle's attempts at the extermination of the rightful heir to the throne.

    Every time he would send out an armed search party, he would simply indicate that they were searching for a holy Taoist sage. His strong support of Taoism and rebuilding Wudang and setting it up as the new (new at the time) mecca of Taoism was in my opinion no more than what happens to modern day businessmen or politicians who get busted doing something illegal or "immoral." They spend the next half a year walking around with a bible, and talking about Jesus.

    Fact is, Yongle was not a practicing Taoist, never attended any of the temples he had rebuilt (except for possibly the imperial temple... still have a lot of reading to do.)

    This alone should tell most people everything they would want to know.

    Nevermind the fact that each consecutive official record of Zhang San Feng was nothing more than a retelling of the previous record, with more and more stories and details being added as time went on.
    =================
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  7. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2011 9:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
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    Metsu, any chance your instructor would be willing and able to get his hands on reprinted copies of the Ming Dynasty court records which described Zhang San Feng? I need to get my hands on the original Hanzi if possible.

    I am particularly interested in Ren Ziyuan (任自垣,) Lang Ying (郎瑛,) and Zhang Tingyu (张廷) as potential sources.
    =================
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  8. Metsudragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2011 10:07am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^I will definitely ask him this week. I think he should be able to as I'm sure that's where he drew his conclusion that Zhang San Feng atleast existed from. I'll jot those names down and get back to you by friday, I also told him you may be interested in his dissertation once its complete, it'll be in simplified hanzi though but he said you're welcome to it if you wanted it so I told him I'd ask you.

    also as for the tang hao books, if you can get the list to me by the beginning of april that'd be great, only reason I'm pressing it is that april's my last full month here so I want to order the books off taobao so I can have them here by the time I leave, and I'll mail them to you in a package when I get home(along with the ming stuff if I can get ahold of it)
  9. Metsudragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2011 5:57am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *Talked with him Sri Hanuman and he said that's fine but give him sometime as the machines at the National Library are downed for the month, but when they're active he'll get them for me to give to you, he said it'll all be in classical chinese however, but I just asked him for all the court records that mentioned Zhang San Feng.
  10. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2013 7:11am


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I haven't posted on here for years, but I followed a link here. This thread needs more love. Did you ever get any closer to "uncovering the truth"? After years of studying Sanda in China I have recently begun studying Chen-style Taijiquan. The longer I live in China and the more I get to know the language and culture, the more I find. In my small southern city I have found the big three internals and many others.

    Years ago I had read about Zhang Sanfeng, but I have heard nothing but Chen Wangting from Chinese. Also, the Shaolin temple and Wudangshan aren't exactly highly regarded by almost everyone that I've met.

    That said, I have a Chinese friend, a very talented martial artist that majored in Shuaijiao, that found a Wudangquan teacher and has been studying forms and applications from him and is preparing to make a trip to Wudangshan to scope the place out. When he learned seemed legitimate, though I am unsure of any authentic connections to the three "internal arts". As far as I know there was no intent to study those.

    If anyone is interested I can follow up on this later. Tomorrow I'm leaving for my wife's village so I will not have internet access for a time.
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