The Good, The Bad, and The Overrated...What are your experiences?

**Hooded Justice** · Posted On: 4/20/2010 1:03am

Originally Posted by zaohu

Did you get this idea from Scrapper's article? I'll play along.

Not really. I was just browsing through the armory and some cursory searches and realized there were a lot peoples experiences with different arms scattered throughout different threads but no thread really just to gather general impressions that might be useful for people like myself who know the big names but you always see a brand or two that you don't recognize and wonder about.

As for dropping 600 on a DE perhaps a few years ago I might have been able to get away with that but I just dropped 600 on a GSG5 SD because they are gunna be semi collectible in the states now. Usually for pistols I can find a range that rents one I am interested in so I can get an idea if I like them but oddly enough nobody rents DE's even though you think they would be popular.

I am amazed at the hate-on for H&K. I figured that by virtue of being a big name their quality was decent and price was acceptable else they wouldn't be as popular. I have only fired their usc semi auto carbine several years ago but can't recall if it was any good or not.

I am going to go against convention and put one in the overrated column:

Glock: In a world where people apparently drop 1500 on pistols price is relative to desire. I accept that they are well made and durable weapons. My problems are purely personal. I find the grip on Glocks to be awkward to the point of uncomfortable. I don't know why but I always shoot worse with glocks. Also if you happen to limp wrist them as my lady friend used to they seem to jam when ejecting spent cases. This has happened to me with almost every Glock I fired though they were all range guns and could have been simply worn or not cared for. Also I find the safety directly on the trigger to simply be weird.

The Good:
Reinforcing the military surplus angle and adding Enfields especially. I have never seen one for more than 220 and as low as 150 and the expensive one had a bayonet with it. Not as cheap as a Nagat but doesn't have the operational quirks. Ammo seems to be pretty available and the differences between the 30-06 and the .303 seems to be minimal. 10 round mag and that lovely short bolt action which at least on my surplus one is still smooth as silk. Every time I hold it I get a strange craving for tea and a biscuit and feel like I should bloody the nose of a Hun.

I'll also second the revolvers for overrated with a caveat.

The Overrated:

Compact revolvers. I have had my hands on 3 different Ruger Vaqueros and I dig them. For cowboy shooters they are the tits. Never got to fire a medium or large frame S&W but always wanted to find a model 29 though they seem scarce. My problem and from some of the folks I've talked to is with the compact "backup" revolvers. Having bigger hands it might just be they are too small in general but even complexity aside if you are going for a revolver get at least a medium frame unless you have an steel grip.

The Mysterious:

The "Super Magnums": Things like the 454 casull and 500 magnum and **** they say can be used as a back up for game hunting. The range near me has a S&W 500 magnum they rent for $30 and it includes 5 rounds with it. This thing looks like what The Joker shot the Bat plane down with.

**Hooded Justice** · Posted On: 4/20/2010 1:09am

Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce

Bad
- Llama. Screw you, Llama! **** you! From your revolvers to your 1911 not-clones to your Omni semiautos, everything you make is ****! ****! I HATE YOU!

I seriously loled at this.

**vaquero de las nalgas** · Posted On: 4/20/2010 2:55am

Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce

Good:
- Beretta Model 21. Dead reliable even in .22. Handy gun for the trail. No excuse for not having it with you.

I inherited one of these a few years ago. It is the best for late night walks through Idiot territory. On a dark street, you can't see it. Literally hidden in your palm.

Also like the Beretta 96 and the mod 84, double stack .380 magazine is very reassuring.

**mad_malk** · Posted On: 4/20/2010 4:37pm

Originally Posted by Hooded Justice

I am amazed at the hate-on for H&K. I figured that by virtue of being a big name their quality was decent and price was acceptable else they wouldn't be as popular. I have only fired their usc semi auto carbine several years ago but can't recall if it was any good or not.

I am going to go against convention and put one in the overrated column:

Glock: In a world where people apparently drop 1500 on pistols price is relative to desire. I accept that they are well made and durable weapons. My problems are purely personal. I find the grip on Glocks to be awkward to the point of uncomfortable. I don't know why but I always shoot worse with glocks. Also if you happen to limp wrist them as my lady friend used to they seem to jam when ejecting spent cases. This has happened to me with almost every Glock I fired though they were all range guns and could have been simply worn or not cared for. Also I find the safety directly on the trigger to simply be weird.

First H&K are nothing special and there CS sucks.
As for the Glock if you severely limp wrist any gun you can get a failure to extract. cuppled with a worn out extracter or slide spring and the likely hood is doubly so.

The key thing to remember is When the time ever comes Will the gun function properly. Having a gun that goes Bang matters far more then weather you can shoot a 4 MOA with a pistol at 50 yards if all you hear is Click when you really need it.

**IMightBeWrong** · Posted On: 4/20/2010 8:30pm

Originally Posted by Hooded Justice

I am amazed at the hate-on for H&K. I figured that by virtue of being a big name their quality was decent and price was acceptable else they wouldn't be as popular. I have only fired their usc semi auto carbine several years ago but can't recall if it was any good or not.

They aren't total crap or they'd be in the BAD category as opposed to Overrated. The issue is that they aren't anything special either. The company wasn't anything special until the P7, and then when they discontinued it for the USP with their admittedly genius advertising (using the Navy SEALs as a symbol since it was based on a pistol designed for them along with tons of controlled "torture testing") all of the previous fans plus the Tacticool crowd popped boners. Their newer pistols are decent, but are overpriced by a few hundred dollars and don't even outperform some of their competition. So why when Glock and SIG are making better pistols than you would you up your price point? Well, regardless, HK is making it work with great marketing and I've got to hand it to them for that. Doesn't change the fact that they're way overrated, though.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 4/20/2010 9:18pm

Originally Posted by zaohu

They aren't total crap or they'd be in the BAD category as opposed to Overrated. The issue is that they aren't anything special either. The company wasn't anything special until the P7, and then when they discontinued it for the USP with their admittedly genius advertising (using the Navy SEALs as a symbol since it was based on a pistol designed for them along with tons of controlled "torture testing") all of the previous fans plus the Tacticool crowd popped boners. Their newer pistols are decent, but are overpriced by a few hundred dollars and don't even outperform some of their competition. So why when Glock and SIG are making better pistols than you would you up your price point? Well, regardless, HK is making it work with great marketing and I've got to hand it to them for that. Doesn't change the fact that they're way overrated, though.

Seriously. If wanted an overpriced handgun with a Teutonic namesake, I'd buy SIG. At least their product is on par with the asking sticker price.

**mad_malk** · Posted On: 4/21/2010 12:32am

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

Seriously. If wanted an overpriced handgun with a Teutonic namesake, I'd buy Lesbear. At least their product is on par with the asking sticker price.

Fixed it for you:qleft7:

**Scrapper** · Posted On: 4/21/2010 10:30am

The Good:
Taurus revolvers. THeir automatics are OK, but their revolvers are damned good. I own several, and have never had a problem. They shoot well, never break and I love 'em.

Yeah...there is some bad press out there, but until one actually breaks on me, I won't listen to it.

The Bad:
The price of a name-brand 1911. It's ridiculous. While a wonderful weapon, it's still just a a full-size SA auto with an 8-round mag (most of the time). More practical guns go for 1/3 the price of most name-brand 1911's.

The overrated:
Mouse guns- Why? Why would anyone over 120 pounds carry a 6-shot .380 when a snub-nosed revolver provides far more power and reliability at half the price?

**Scrapper** · Posted On: 4/21/2010 10:37am

Originally Posted by zaohu

3. Revolvers of all types. People love revolvers for their reliability and simplicity. The problem is that revolvers have only one of these traits. Simple is something a revolver simply isn't, despite what many would lead you to believe. Revolvers have the illusion of simplicity due to their looks. After all, how many parts could there really be in there? Automatics must have twice the parts in them, and that's pretty much a greater chance of the weapon breaking down with use, right? Wrong. Flip the equation. Most automatics have 40-60 parts or so, some even fewer (a Makarov has 27). Your average revolver has about 80 tiny, fragile parts hidden away in it's simple looking frame, and if any one of these parts gets thrown out of whack, the whole weapon needs tuning to make sure that the timing between the cylinder and hammer work. Is a revolver usually a great choice for a person looking for a defensive weapon that requires little maintanence? Hell yes. Is it simple? Hell no. An automatic pistol can usually be fixed by simply replacing whatever part is broken. Not the case with a revolver. Not that I'm knocking revolvers or anything, I'm a huge fan of the Ruger SP101, S&W M19 (sadly discontinued) and all sorts of old Colt Revolvers. But die hard fans of the ol' wheelgun seem to think their choice of weapon is absolutely superior in every way save trigger pull and capacity. This just isn't the case.

They are simpler in execution, not in parts quantity. By eliminating the gas-operated mechanicals, feeding process, and ejection process, you eliminate a host of variables that must occur correctly from the nominal cycling sequence.

Furthermore, very few of a revolver parts move more than a fraction of an inch during operation, and all but one experience no impact or reciprocation. None of them slide against any of the others other. From a materials standpoint, this is significant for the longevity of the part.

Less movement= less cycling=less wear=less stress=less failure

This thought process applies to any mechanical device.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 4/21/2010 11:11am

Originally Posted by Scrapper

The Good:
Taurus revolvers. THeir automatics are OK, but their revolvers are damned good. I own several, and have never had a problem. They shoot well, never break and I love 'em.

Hey Scrapper, what Taurus revolvers do you own? I've seen beautiful examples in their ads, and heard tales of exceptionally nice ones, but all the pieces I've examined in the stores were pretty rough, and kind of cheap even for the price. I've been trying to find a raging bull that is as clean as the ones in their ads, but no luck so far. (Which kind of sucks, because the clean examples I've seen looked exceptional. I just haven't been able to find one in person.)

I would not mind owning one of their PT1911's at all BTW. That one is certainly the exception to their rather infamous automatics.