The Good, The Bad, and The Overrated...What are your experiences?
I figured there should be a thread that could just be a place to give brief overviews of gun brands or models that you've personally had experience with and either loved or absolutely hated. Not so much an in depth review as in the articles section but more so just general advice as to what names and models to stay away from or to look for like,
The Good: One brand I don't see get much attention on here is Para Ordinance. Their main deal is high capacity 1911 models chambered for different calibers 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. I've gotten to fire various Kimber, Springfield, Colt and Norinco 1911 models and I can't say that the manufacturing is any better or worse that the big 3 names but it feels nice and solid and I like the thicker double stack grip. The big perks for me are the high capacity for a 1911, 14+1 in chamber and I think the 9mm goes up to 18+1. Also they have a light double action trigger set up which I find preferable to the standard short trigger pull of 1911's.
The Bad: Last week I got to fire a brand new S&W semi auto. I can't say for sure but I believe it was a SW9VE chambered obviously for 9mm(belonged to 3rd party that went shooting with me and friend). All things considered it was an average pistol. Not really bad but I needed to fill out this part. The one thing that did grab my attention was that about 1/3 the time when loading a new magazine, if you gave it a stiff enough slap to make sure it was locked in, the slide would close without me touching the slide release. I found this disconcerting especially for a brand new gun. The owner of the S&W didn't seem too taken with it and mentioned that it wasn't as good as some of his other 9mm's but it sounds like he modifies them a lot so this might be a gun ripe for personal modification.
The Overrated: Now I have never gotten to fire one but I have heard all sorts of tales about Desert Eagles being the Michael Bay of guns. All style no substance. None of the ranges near me have them to rent and it seems that even for a used .357 they run about 600 at a bare minimum so I am not likely to buy one just to see what it is like. I saw a new one at a gun show several years back for 1500. Anyone here ever owned or at least gotten to fire someone else's? Is 1500 too much for a high cap 357/44 mag Hollywood gun? Also since I have never gotten to hold them I can't verify but they look like they are pretty heavy.
Underated: CZ, Tanfoglio, Rock Isand, Izmash. Never met a CZ that I didn't like. My 10mm witness was a damn lead laser. And Rock Island (armscorp) makes the only milled 1911a1 in town, for half the price of it's investment cast competitors. Izmash is t3h r34l $0v1et d34dly. Inexpensive, reliable to the point of being boring, and darn near indestructible.
Overated: H&K, Taurus, Colt. H&K? Let me tell you how I feel about H&K...
An open letter to the gun community from HK’s marketing department: In a world of compromises, some people put the bullets in the magazine backwards…
But it doesn’t matter, because our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.
At HK, we stuck a piston on an AR15, just like a bunch of other companies have done, dating back to about 1969. However ours is better, because we refuse to sell it to civilians. Because you suck, and we hate you.
Our XM8 is the greatest rifle ever developed. It may melt, and it doesn’t fit any accessories known to man, but that is your fault. If you were a real operator, you would love it. Once again, look at Rainbow Six, that G36 sure is cool isn’t it? Yeah, you know you want one.
And by the way, check out our new HK45. We decided that humans don’t need to release the magazine with their thumbs. If you were a really manly teutonic operator, you would be able to reach the controls. Plus we’ve fired 100,000,000 rounds through one with zero malfunctions, and that was while it was buried in a lake of molten lava, on the moon. If you don’t believe us, it is because you aren’t a real operator.
By the way, our cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns like the G3 and MP5 are the bestest things ever, and totally worth asinine scalpers prices, but note that cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns from other countries are commie garbage. Not that it matters, because you’re civilians, so we won’t sell them to you anyway. Because you suck, and we hate you, but we know you’ll be back. We can beat you down like a trailer park wife, but you’ll come back, you always do.
Buy our stuff.
HK Marketing DepartmentHK. Because you suck. And we hate you.
Taurus has to have the most erratic QC in the world. When they work, they work. When they don't, they suck ass. More often than not, they don't. Sure they come with a "lifetime warranty", but that's because you're going to need it.
Colt has been resting on their laurels for decades. The same 1970's designs, for more money than is even conceivable. All so you can have "colt" on the side of your piece. Cutting out their most unique products, like the Anaconda and their officers 1911, while charging astronomical sums for the AR15, which can be had for a quarter of the price from more manufacturers than I can even name. IMO, they have been surpassed by companies like Glock, Sig, even Ruger and S&W, and they never saw it coming. Without their government contracts, they would be dead like the dinosaur they are. (I'd still like a Model 70 though... ;) )
As for your Deagle? High cap is a misnomer. Most of the models only hold 7 rounds or less. The highest capacity being the .357, and even then it is not much of a stretch beyond a revolver. It is chambered for mostly rimmed cartridges, which do not feed well in magazines. (The rims bind up if not loaded properly.) It's gas sytem is picky in regards to what ammo will reliably cyle it, making it prone to jams. And lead bullets (wad cutters) will foul the gas tube in such a way that the gun will jam permanently. As in, $1000 paper weight. It cannot be repaired. Basically, the Desert Eagle is a finicky range queen that is only suitable for dick measuring contests and Hollywood movies. Cool toy, but not a good "weapon".
The "Baby Eagle" on the other hand is a descendant of the Browning Hi-power, CZ75 family, and I would love to own one.
Last edited by Mr. Machette; 4/19/2010 7:51pm at .
The good Glock. i stake my life on it literally every day i got to work.
The overrated H&K. excluding the P7 which they no longer make.
The Bad that's subjective.
Please explain "reliable to the point of boring" for me.
Originally Posted by Mr. Machette
As for DE being high cap I suppose higher cap is more correct. According to http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg16-e.htm it is 9/8/7 for 357/44/50 so you still get 1-2 more rounds than a revolver even those 8 shot 357's. So aside from their problems with lead rounds being the worst idea for the gun ever and possible feed problems with the magazine, does the gun even fire any better than it's revolving counter parts?
I suppose I don't really see what role it fills aside from target shooter but even with all the post Matrix/Snatch media whoring it has gotten I have always thought the blued finish on a DE made it look like a sexy beast. Funny, you can see them throughout 80's/90's action movies but they didn't get super famous till almost 2000.
Sorry, the joke was that they work so well there are no surprises. Of course, this is in the factory where Stalin himself will come back from the grave and rape you if that AK your building doesn't fire... (and like any other auto loader, they actually do jam sometimes, just not very often.)
Originally Posted by Hooded Justice
Originally Posted by Mr. Machette
I figured as much but you never know. Could be some shooter lingo that hobbyists like me never hear.
Well hey, if you shoot as a hobby, then by all means get the Deagle! It's big, it's bad, it's loud as hell! Got to be a blast to shoot, and will surely turn heads at the range.
Originally Posted by Hooded Justice
And honestly, if you see one in the $600 range that is a hell of a deal. They tend towards $800 and up in my neck of the woods.
I'm kind of on the poorer end of the shooter spectrum though, so personally, I've got to stick with whats practical. Someday though, I'll be able collect pieces purely for fun.
Shoot safe man, and enjoy!
Did you get this idea from Scrapper's article? I'll play along.
1. SIG Sauer. I can not possibly begin to tell you how much I respect SIG Sauer weapons. It's true that their Quality Control has gone down in recent years, but there have been fewer reports of this lately and it was rare to see anything wrong in the first place. SIGs are beautiful weapons with excellent craftsmanship and run like clockwork. They are the smoothest shooting automatic pistols I know of. Their 9mms handle like .22s, their .40's handle like 9mms and so on. They have excellent factory night sights, excellent fit and finish, and a smooth DA/SA trigger pull.
2. Glock. Glocks are with out a doubt the most controversial handguns out there. You love them or you hate them. There are more rumors being spread about Glocks than any other handguns out there, the most recent rumor being a false one about a recall on the new Gen 4 Glocks having bad recoil spring assemblies. Glock pistols simply work, and they do so without busting your wallet too badly. $500 for a 9mm, .40, or .357 SIG, and $530 for a .45 or 10mm. Yes, that's right, a 10mm. Perhaps the only downside to Glock from my point of view is that they aren't right for everybody's hands. Smaller handed shooters often can't get a comfortable grip on the pistols, although Glocks newer models are making an effort to correct this problem with adjustable backstraps. Glock is also known for having OUTSTANDING customer service. If you have a problem, they'll fix it. Oh, and for your time they'll toss in a few free upgrades to your pistol (extended controls and such) and maybe some free T-Shirts.
3. Springfield Armory 1911s. While Kimber's once great quality started to get driven into the dirt, SA's quality started to skyrocket. More models started to be introduced for 1911 enthusiasts of all types, from custom long-slided models with picatinny railed recievers to pocket sized 9mm models. The stuff currently coming out of SA's production line is top notch and in my experience will perform on the same level as pistols from Wilson Combat or Ed Brown.
4. Military Surplus weapons. To be specific, Makarovs, SKSs, Nagants and the like. Absolutely awesome weapons for the prices you can steal these for. These weapons are hit or miss when it comes to finding them in good condition, but they'll usually work one way or another and are easy to fix if parts break. These weapons have a huge fun factor and can make you feel like you're in Eastern Europe getting ready to pop off some Nazi heads. They're also extremely fun to collect.
1. Walther PPS. This one was a huge disappointment. It's great looking and tries to fill the void in the gun market where single stack compact 9mms should be, but it's so ammo picky that it's just plain impossible to justify plopping down 600-700 bucks for one. Seems like anything other than Winchester or Remington will cause feeding problems, and this is a problem in many of these pistols, not just some.
2. The Walther P5. It's an awesome pistol, but those bastards stopped production. **** the P5 if I can't have one!
3. 1911s from MOST manufacturers. The damn things are jam-o-matics in rough conditions if you don't stick to the big names. Tough news to swallow for people without much money to spend and a serious lust for the type (and there are plenty of people in this category). My rule is to stick with SA, Colt, or the big names like Wilson or Nighthawk Customs. I have no doubts that there are other brands like RIA that make quality pistols, but I'd rather not "settle" when I could buy a Glock or Used SIG Sauer for the same price range.
1. Heckler & Koch. There's no way to justify their prices. Their pistols should be selling for 500-600 dollars. They load their models with gimmicks that they claim are innovative even though they haven't done anything truly innovative since the P7, which the assholes discontinued. Sure, the USP has undergone some insane testing in HK's controlled test environments, but it's nothing compared to what Glock has done for half the price tag in tests performed by actual owners. HK controls are anything but crisp, the trigger reset is long and uncomfortable. There's play in the trigger and hammer with the safety engaged which may not be a problem, but it is freaking annoying. The grip slips all over the place when your hands get sweaty, and that goes for the newer P30 and HK45 models as well in spite of the grip changes made to try to remedy this. Sorry HK, you need to adjust the texture, not just the shape of the grip. Pistols come with basic glow in the dark night sights instead of Tritium sights which to me is unacceptable. I don't care if Tritium is illegal in Germany, figure out a way to get them on the pistols for the American market. Their HK416 rifles are nothing innovative either, just gas piston AR-15 rifles that they are reluctant to sell to the American public anyway. Thanks for blowing us off, boys, I'll take my business to SIG or Ruger for a piston rifle.
2. The CZ-75b. Why is there such a huge following behind this weapon? This SAO pistol in an all steel frame with a crap trigger reset and no locking block has a huge flaw: A thin slide stop that's known to break at around 3000-5000 rounds if not sooner. There are very few weapons that are inherently prone to breakage, and this is one of the most outstanding examples. It's reputation is not well-deserved.
3. Revolvers of all types. People love revolvers for their reliability and simplicity. The problem is that revolvers have only one of these traits. Simple is something a revolver simply isn't, despite what many would lead you to believe. Revolvers have the illusion of simplicity due to their looks. After all, how many parts could there really be in there? Automatics must have twice the parts in them, and that's pretty much a greater chance of the weapon breaking down with use, right? Wrong. Flip the equation. Most automatics have 40-60 parts or so, some even fewer (a Makarov has 27). Your average revolver has about 80 tiny, fragile parts hidden away in it's simple looking frame, and if any one of these parts gets thrown out of whack, the whole weapon needs tuning to make sure that the timing between the cylinder and hammer work. Is a revolver usually a great choice for a person looking for a defensive weapon that requires little maintanence? Hell yes. Is it simple? Hell no. An automatic pistol can usually be fixed by simply replacing whatever part is broken. Not the case with a revolver. Not that I'm knocking revolvers or anything, I'm a huge fan of the Ruger SP101, S&W M19 (sadly discontinued) and all sorts of old Colt Revolvers. But die hard fans of the ol' wheelgun seem to think their choice of weapon is absolutely superior in every way save trigger pull and capacity. This just isn't the case.
- Tanfoglio T95/EAA Witness/Springfield Armory P9. Solid as a rock, reliable, easy caliber change with a barrel and slide, beautiful ergonomics, frame-mounted safety. Mr. Machette speaks the truth about the 10mm Witness. It's a beauty.
- Coach guns. If you can't figure out a lupara, maybe guns are not for you. Two rounds of twelve-gauge in a short, light package. Used properly, two should be plenty.
- Krag-Jorgensen in .30-40. Butter-soft action. Can be reloaded with the eyes on the target and a round in the chamber. Round is stout enough to take just about anything in the Americas.
- Beretta Model 21. Dead reliable even in .22. Handy gun for the trail. No excuse for not having it with you.
- Hakim semiauto rifle. Ljungman design, 8mm cartridge, cheap, common, can take rewokred MG-13 25-round magazines, light recoil.
- Winchester Model 12. God, I love this gun. I know, they're all old and stuff, but even the 870 takes a back seat to this beautiful old thing.
- HS2000/Springfield XD. If I ever cheat on my EAA Witness, it'll be with this.
- Llama. Screw you, Llama! **** you! From your revolvers to your 1911 not-clones to your Omni semiautos, everything you make is ****! ****! I HATE YOU!
- HK91. I don't care how durable it is. The sights and trigger on this thing are a mess, and its ergonomics blow. Most of its worst characteristics are hard or impossible to change with aftermarket parts.
- Bolt-action rifles with tiny extractors. Cheap and stupid. There is no excuse for a bolt-action to jam, especially if it's to save a buck on some metal.
- Steyr GB. Lee Child hypes this thing like it's the Second Coming. It's not. The much-touted reliability is mediocre at best. Want a jam-proof 9mm? Buy a Beretta and stop wasting my time. As for the Rogak, some day I'm going to find that man and give him the death he deserves.
- Ballester Molina. No, it's not a 1911 clone. No, it's not made out of special battleship armor steel (STFU, G. Gordon Liddy). It's a stupid piece of ****. The Sistema 1927 is a totally different gun, and well worth a look. The Ballester is a good gun for the other guy to have.
- SPAS-12. Too heavy, too clunky. I don't care how it looks.
- Lever-action rifles with tubular magazines. Even with trick ammo to allow spitzers, these still suck. The actions are weak. The forends get loose. What do i care if it fits in a saddle scabbard? Do I look like a damn cowboy?
- Charter Arms Bulldog Pug. Too small, too light, checkering too sharp. Firing it feels like holding the business end of a rasp while an ape tries to tug it out of your hand. Never again.
- Single-action revolvers. No, the grip design is not ergonomic. Also, the slow lock time and heavy hammer fall make fine accuracy difficult.
- Super-sized semiauto pistols. Auto-Mag, Desert Eagle, L.A.R. Grizzly, Wildey, whatever...they all blow. The magazine is in the grip so the damn thing's too big, it's a semiauto so it won't feed a wide range of handloads, and what's the point? If you want to pack a huge-assed magnum, carry a revolver. The grips are reasonably sized and there are more than enough shots.
- German guns. Seriously, STFU about how all German guns are great. You know where the RG is made? Germany? The Arminius? Germany! Yeah, HK made the P7 PSP, and it is seriously awesome, but they also made the VP-70 with an 18-pound trigger pull. Eighteen pounds! Yeah, that's great ergonomics.
Good: Glock-my carry gun for years, Stag Arms-I stake everything on thid rifle
Bad: Kimber-I have seen to many of them break while training. I would not stake anything on them.
Over-rated: CZ-they just are not that good. They are above average, but that is the best they can do.