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  1. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2010 2:29am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeADragon View Post
    Are there any published resources on Ringen? I'd really like to learn more on this style but I haven't seen much published on it.
    It shall once more be mentioned that "Ringen" is the generic german term for wrestling. The modern-day olympic sport "Ringen". With the two rulesets "Freistil" (freestyle) and "Griechisch-Römisch" (greco-roman) and quite a few folk-styles subsumed under it.

    One can practice Ringen in hundreds of clubs all over Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Thousands of people do so.

    Yes there are a lot of publications on that sport. From homestudy books/dvd's to scientific research papers. But they are probably not what you are looking for.

    If someone wants to recreate certain forms of german medieval wrestling, I would strongly advise to use more specific terms. Otherwise be prepared to be misunderstood/ridiculed by people who acutally speak german.

    Also take into consideration that we have actual living traditions, which even predate medieval wrestling, like the Austrian "Rangeln". The latter (to make the confusion perfect) beeing just an old dialect word for "Ringen".

    People call their sword-waggling "Liechtenauer" school or the likes. Maybe it would be benefitial to give recreationist wrestling schools similar names. My heart will weep for the masters names thus raped, but at least people will have a chance to understand what the heck you are talking about.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2010 2:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In the context of an English-language discussion about Renaissance-era German martial arts, "ringen" as in "wrestling" is perfectly easily understood to mean the wrestling of the Renaissance era.

    Otherwise; kampfringen.
  3. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 3:37am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello
    Kwan Doa, I see where you are coming from, in English wrestling usually conjures guy in hotpants and plot better constructed than an episode of Eastenders (which is not that hard I grant you)
    Or in French “lutte” is really understood as either “Greco-Roman” or libre “free” so when I teach in France, I tend to always qualify “lutte” with Ringeck or medieval.
    But as Ddlr pointed out in English Ringen= either WTF?, Medieval German Wrestling or un-armoured/unarmed Medieval German Wrestling.

    It is a foreign word; we do not need that level of qualification. Ringecn or abrazze are almost only used in the context of medieval activities.

    Now I do like you idea of raping the old master, if we play our cards right like if we say it to save Business Bankers from the recession, we could even have a Christmas number 1
    We could do a Madonna with Merkverse. either we rip Eminem 8 miles or we remix and Abba riff, and here we go. Any takers?

    Phil
  4. JDBermudez is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 4:27pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: WMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey guys- new poster here, but long time WMA participant.

    Background: I am in security management and high-risk/high profile security for a day job. I have also been involved in various EMAs, and with various WMA styles/groups, for the last 17 years (Jesus, has it really been that long?).

    I have been studying Fechtringen and Abbrazare as combatives systems, and looking at their analogous components to Krav Maga, MCMAP, MACP, PPCT and other military/police defensive (and offensive) tactics systems.

    The use of clothing is, to me, essential. Why? because we're not going to be getting into a lot of fights naked. Our opponents in a real fight WILL use our clothes, and we will have access to theirs. One of the reasons that the US Modern Army Combatives Program has "MMA"-style bouts where both opponents are wearing shirts and BDU pants is that those are the articles they (and their enemies) may well be wearing in a brawl.

    Having training gear that gives you the same points of purchase in a fight as normal clothes (lapel, belt/waistband, sleeve) but can withstand the rigours of training, is a benefit. As for having them look slightly "medieval" or "knightly"- why NOT tie the modern training gear into the heritage the systems come from? The reminder that the guys who developed these systems were professional killers whose sole occupation as memebers of the second estate was the prosecution of war is not a bad thing... after all, that's why we're trusting their manuals....
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 6:05pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bit of a necro, but I find it curious that no one pointed this out before this guy:

    Quote Originally Posted by JDBermudez View Post
    The use of clothing is, to me, essential. Why? because we're not going to be getting into a lot of fights naked. Our opponents in a real fight WILL use our clothes, and we will have access to theirs. …

    Having training gear that gives you the same points of purchase in a fight as normal clothes (lapel, belt/waistband, sleeve) but can withstand the rigours of training, is a benefit.
    After all, those of us who have done any amount of both gi and no-gi sparring know that the difference is greater than, as Mordschlag seems to imply, whether or not you can perform that subset of techniques that requires cloth grabs. It also alters the way we perform the techniques that do not require them, because we may enhance them with cloth grabs, because we may need to overcome our opponent’s grips, and because beyond points of purchase, friction changes the flow of the fight. There are techniques I do in both gi and no-gi, but some I find much easier in no-gi (triangles, for instance), whereas others seem much higher percentage in a gi. Same techniques; not quite the same thing.

    It’s fine to, as Mordschlag says, avoid relying on cloth grips for techniques that don’t require them, but I think it’s silly to rely on the absence of those same grips. And if you work almost entirely in a rashguard or something else that’s largely ungrabbable (or Greek-style, if that’s your fancy), you won’t have experience with the added details that those grips will add.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. GenericUnique is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 6:39pm


     Style: WMA Lichtenauer Longsword

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Congratulations, Petter. You just raised my opinion of jackets for ringen from "a nice thing to have, but not worth the bother and expense for the tiny handful of techniques that need them" to "something I really need to think about getting." All the to-and-fro on the FaceBook Kampfringen discussion group failed to get anywhere close to that.

    If there's one thing I'm insufferably smug about, it's being open to rational argument. Well done.
  7. JDBermudez is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 7:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: WMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, if you're ever going to apply kampfringen/fechtringen/ringen/Unarmed WMA/Old School CQC to real life (and if you can't, what's the use of learning it?), you need to practice for clothing.

    I'm not saying finding random people on the street and screaming "In St. George's name, engage me!" at them, but if it comes to defending yourself, the applications are there in the art. And if that's the case, you can pretty much guarantee you'll be facing a clothed opponent... unless you live in a really shady nudist colony.

    So, practice with belts, and lapels, and sleeves, and pants... practice for what you will face. Are the jackets EXACTLY analogous to street clothes? No. But they're close enough for horseshoes, hand-grenades and, IMO, Ringen.

    And yeah, they look medieval-y. Why is it a bad thing to have that be a motivator? Most of us are in WMA because we overdosed on knights in armour at some point as kids anyway. :P
  8. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 8:29pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JDBermudez View Post
    So, practice with belts, and lapels, and sleeves, and pants... practice for what you will face.
    For myself I say: Practice with both. Practice with something gi-like, and you will develop the skills of exploiting cloth grips where they exist, and dealing with your opponent seizing them on you. Practice no-gi, in shorts and rashguard or something similar where cloth grabs play no part, and you develop the skills of controlling an opponent regardless of what he’s wearing, and the faster, more dynamic and slippery nature of a grappling fight where you can’t rely on grips or friction. With both tools in your arsenal, I reckon you’ll be able to adapt to most things in between (hard-to-grip clothes or clothes that don’t afford much of a grip, fabrics that add less friction, and so on). If you really want to go all “What would be practically useful?” about it, after all, Mordschlag is right that you may not want to rely on cloth grips. A t-shirt or button-up shirt offer some purchase, but not nearly as much as a gi top or one of those ringen jackets.

    Besides, both kinds of grappling are fun and IMO augment each other.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 8:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Later period, but Barton-Wright made the same point to an English wrestler who was aggressively questioning the jacketed wrestling (basically, submission jujitsu) that B-W was promoting back around 1900; the gi jacket simulates the type of jacket likely to be worn by an assailant in the (Edwardian London) street.
  10. JDBermudez is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2012 1:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: WMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Petter: good points. I tend not to worry about t-shirts too much since my usual solution three is to "jersey" the guy and start feeding him knees... but you're 100% right that a brawl with a less clad guy might arise. Even here in the great white north we do have SOME summer months :P
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