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  1. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/20/2010 12:55pm


     Style: slackerjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    If you want something that doesn't rip when pulled, survives intense training, and prevents movement restriction, then you are already wearing it: YOUR SKIN!

    .


    Have you ever had some get a good grip on your skin, basically pushing the fingertips in , pulling forward and rolling it into their grip and then been thrown or manuvered around? It leaves marks.
  2. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2010 3:16pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post
    Have you ever had some get a good grip on your skin, basically pushing the fingertips in , pulling forward and rolling it into their grip and then been thrown or manuvered around? It leaves marks.
    ...and some of the women I used to manage with charged extra for that...wait, wrong message board for that. ANYWAY...

    Yes, I do see the potential for someone to look at this and see some Euro-baby saying "we got martial arts too! We got dojos an' mats an' ranking systems an' instruction books an' videos an' history an' tradition an' now we got UNIFORMS TOO! We're just as cool as those Asians with their kung-fu-karate!"

    But I see a cool period-looking piece of garb that I can fight in and wear to SCA events.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/20/2010 8:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that training with a durable jacket you can grab develops a part of fighting that gives you an advantage over someone who has never trained that way.
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/21/2010 8:39am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Wow it's nice to see someone with reading comprehension! Just because the fighters are wearing clothes in Ringen plates doesn't mean that the clothing is always required to do Ringen, just as clothing isn't always required to run a marathon. If there are plates detailing someone wearing a kilt, does that mean we need to go out and make a kilt made of monk's fibre too? Though that would be a lot more bad ass than a jacket...
    Then either you missed the point or I was too subtle.

    I'll be more blunt. I'm not trying to offend but my polite reply was misunderstood. As has been pointed out any number of times, occasionally with specific example references, many Ringen techniques require cloths and that is specifically shown in illustrations. That is what I was trying to politely imply.

    As to some of your other suggestions, research seems to indicate that historic garb was quite durable. Probably not as durable as a modern Gi but far more so than a modern T-Shirt. They won't usually rip from one or two throws. But it simply makes sense that a more durable version would be desirable for training. That is, in fact, why we have the modern heavy weight Judogi.

    Grabbing skin instead of cloths. C'mon, now. Are you seriously going to suggest a double purple-nurple to perform Tomo Nage with? Honestly? And a guy's gotta have a pretty good "spare tire" to substitute for a belt grab (unless your suggesting an "alternate" handle in that area). And as for the seat-of-the-pants grab that is illustrated, I really don't want to think about what alternative you might have in mind! :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/21/2010 12:38pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post



    If you want something that doesn't rip when pulled, survives intense training, and prevents movement restriction, then you are already wearing it: YOUR SKIN! Of course you don't get to wear a cool little status-marking belt with it but who cares? Want to wear something approximate to period clothing while doing Ringen? If you want to be accurate you might want to find out what Bretons were wearing pre-1900 and make your opponent wear that, as a lot of the Ringen seems aimed towards Noblemen looking to defend themselves against the poor. What about wrestling another Noble? Why not just wear period-accurate tunics? If they rip then that is an indicator of accuracy, since there is no evidence of feudal Europeans wearing Monk Clothe gees.

    But like I said previous: if you want to wear gees to do Ringen for whatever reason, go for it. But don't imply that you need them for the vast majority of Ringen.
    The Gi vs no Gi debate has been done a billion time on here. But I don't think it is really relivant to this thread.

    If you are going to train with a shirt on, you will run out of shirts pretty quick if they are being used in the manner that these people are training. So you either get a better shirt to train in, or make your own. Why use a Gi from a martial art when you can just make one that is unique to your martial art?

    Seems like a no brainer to me. Cool Jackets!
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  6. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2010 6:39am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello
    Is it not a medieval Gi top? A judo, an aikido GI (a judo GI with short sleeve) a rugby shirt does the same. As M said it is gives a medieval flavour.

    As far as need to garb my understanding of techniques is that if there is some cloth to grab fine otherwise grab the man.
    Arming doublets are very taunt and there is really nothing to grab, a jack of 25-30 layers of linen will be more that a hand full. Judicial dual outfit seems difficult to grab
    But equally you can be set upon in civilian clothing and even on an arming doublet you can grab either the bottom of the doublet or the top of the hoose

    Really if you grab someone by the cloth of the lapel and ram his fist in your throat or grabs directly the throat, does it make that much of a difference if what you are after is momentary advantage to access your weapon.
    Obviously it maters much more if we are doing submission wresting match (regardless of the period) but really the importance of Gi/no Gi is function of what end result we want achieve and the time you have to achieve it.


    Phil
  7. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2010 7:01am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post
    Have you ever had some get a good grip on your skin, basically pushing the fingertips in , pulling forward and rolling it into their grip and then been thrown or manuvered around? It leaves marks.

    So does Fraulein Zitta and her pink riding crop.

    Grab someone by the cloth at shoulder when they wear a karate gi. (ie the one with seems on the shoulder). It does leave mark just as well.
    And yes if you have a strong grip, you can leave bruises when you garb an arm or a leg but you are garbing the whole member not trying to grab flesh as if it was cloth.

    Phil
  8. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/24/2010 9:56am


     Style: slackerjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    So does Fraulein Zitta and her pink riding crop.

    Grab someone by the cloth at shoulder when they wear a karate gi. (ie the one with seems on the shoulder). It does leave mark just as well.
    And yes if you have a strong grip, you can leave bruises when you garb an arm or a leg but you are garbing the whole member not trying to grab flesh as if it was cloth.

    Phil
    You read the post I replied to, yes? Context is to that post. I was actually referring to grabbing the skin, not necessailry the flesh underneath. Beyond bruising, it can be permanently strecthed and/or torn. A jacket (or shirt of any kind) is a better alternative.
  9. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2010 11:38am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post
    You read the post I replied to, yes? Context is to that post. I was actually referring to grabbing the skin, not necessailry the flesh underneath. Beyond bruising, it can be permanently strecthed and/or torn. A jacket (or shirt of any kind) is a better alternative.
    Yes I did

    Sure it can, it only takes 75 Newton if my memory serve me right So the concept is as reliable and hitting the 8975th pressure point where you can kill a man instantly if you hit him between the horse of the Guinness and the hour of the Grosh if he is Cancerian with Leo in raising in the house of mercury.

    But what do I know, I am 45 so I am permanently torn and stretched.

    Phil
  10. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2010 12:21pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I don't feel like quoting multiple posts and going about it that way, consider this like a big general reply:

    On the video - You lot seem a deal less cynical than I, not that that's a bad thing. I don't take people at face value but I hope their intentions are as pure as you all seem to believe, if only for the sake of the character of HEMA as a whole. I am just really suspicious of turning Ringen into something like the EMAs and I would personally hate to see such uniforms being required by many HEMA groups in the future. Far too ritualistic for me.

    Skin - I'm not trying to say skin is exactly like a Gi. Obviously it is not exactly the same, you can't grab skin exactly like a sleeve or a collar or a belt. But like I said...unless the plate you want to practice requires said article clothing, I don't know why you'd want to wear the Gi. That floats your boat then by all means go for it. But who cares if you get a little fucked up from sparring? Isn't that the nature of the martial arts? Do you want to be that guy who wears a bird cage on their head when they do open hand sparring? If not, why would a Gi be any different? If you fight with swords, do you not expect to get bruises and cuts? If you fight with your hands, do you not expect pretty much the same?
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