HEMA unarmed combat training jackets

[Mordschlag]

I'm no Ringen "expert" either but you should be able to do Ringen equally well against someone in armor, clothes, or none of the above. If you are relying on clothing, unless the plate specifically mentions it, you are not getting the point. If you want to use Western gees for aesthetic reasons that's fine but realize it is purely for prettyness.

So anyway I can appreciate the logic and motivation of the jacket but it appears to me that the majority of Ringen does not require specific pieces of clothing to grab, and if you rely on an opponent having that specific piece of clothing you might find yourself over-relying.

Also based on the narrator of the video posted, it seems like this is half function and half costume-based-legitimacy. IF THOSE CRAZY EASTERNERS GET COOL UNIFORMS WHY DON'T WE HAVE COOL UNIFORMS TOO?! Wear a jacket if you want but at least be upfront about all of your motivations behind doing so.

[GenericUnique]

I'd definitely appreciate one. While most ringen/abraze techniques don't require clothing grips, there's a fair few that obviously do. I'd hazard there are a fair few that, if we wore something closer to the period clothes, we'd reinterpret as well. Not to mention people accidentally or instinctively grabbing hold. If I did more unarmed HEMA (which I'd love to do), I'd probably want something sturdier than my normal tshirts.

[DdlR]

Also based on the narrator of the video posted, it seems like this is half function and half costume-based-legitimacy. IF THOSE CRAZY EASTERNERS GET COOL UNIFORMS WHY DON'T WE HAVE COOL UNIFORMS TOO?! Wear a jacket if you want but at least be upfront about all of your motivations behind doing so.

I think they're being totally upfront about their motivations; they want jackets that are strong enough to withstand training in those historical ringen techniques that require clothing grabs, and which look appropriate for the activity as well.

[lklawson]

My memory has it that Google images depicting marathons show the participants wearing clothes at the minimum; sometimes water bottles.

Huh? What's greek marathons, or any marathon for that matter, have to do with medieval grappling?

I'm no Ringen "expert" either but you should be able to do Ringen equally well against someone in armor, clothes, or none of the above. If you are relying on clothing, unless the plate specifically mentions it, you are not getting the point. If you want to use Western gees for aesthetic reasons that's fine but realize it is purely for prettyness.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert in Ringen but I have studied it a small bit and know that there are a few that do rely on clothing grabs. Petter, for instance, clearly shows Tomoe Nage and multiple other clothing grabs including belt and seat of the pants.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[pauli]

Huh? What's greek marathons, or any marathon for that matter, have to do with medieval grappling?

i believe his point is that you can't look at pictures/drawings of people engaged in an activity and say "see? clothes," while nodding knowingly; the point being that wrestling with clothes on is not proof of jacket wrestling, per se, and like as not is simply a matter of them not being naked.

(i have no dog in this fight, that's just what i got from his statement)

[DdlR]

i believe his point is that you can't look at pictures/drawings of people engaged in an activity and say "see? clothes," while nodding knowingly; the point being that wrestling with clothes on is not proof of jacket wrestling, per se, and like as not is simply a matter of them not being naked.

That's true, but as several people have pointed out, a number of historical ringen techniques patently do involve grips to various parts of the jacket.

[Mordschlag]

i believe his point is that you can't look at pictures/drawings of people engaged in an activity and say "see? clothes," while nodding knowingly; the point being that wrestling with clothes on is not proof of jacket wrestling, per se, and like as not is simply a matter of them not being naked.

(i have no dog in this fight, that's just what i got from his statement)

Wow it's nice to see someone with reading comprehension! Just because the fighters are wearing clothes in Ringen plates doesn't mean that the clothing is always required to do Ringen, just as clothing isn't always required to run a marathon. If there are plates detailing someone wearing a kilt, does that mean we need to go out and make a kilt made of monk's fibre too? Though that would be a lot more bad ass than a jacket...

Now seriously this part is important so read it very slowly: I do realize there are plates that instruct one on how to throw using articles of clothing. In those instances I can fully understand why someone would want a gee-like jacket to practice those. I'm really not trying to troll or nitpick here, but I am a cautious and distrustful person. Being critical of others (and yourself) is important and it can help us deconstruct the creations of others, like this video for example. So why not try it here?

at 2:30:
"certain techniques actually call for you to grasp the opponent's doublet, or to counter against such grabs, and this would destroy most other garments. while it is possible to pantomime these motions without a martial arts jacket, you can't truly appreciate the martial art in its proper context without wearing something to approximate the clothing worn during the time when these arts were used, and this jacket works perfectly for that."


tim

If you want something that doesn't rip when pulled, survives intense training, and prevents movement restriction, then you are already wearing it: YOUR SKIN! Of course you don't get to wear a cool little status-marking belt with it but who cares? Want to wear something approximate to period clothing while doing Ringen? If you want to be accurate you might want to find out what Bretons were wearing pre-1900 and make your opponent wear that, as a lot of the Ringen seems aimed towards Noblemen looking to defend themselves against the poor. What about wrestling another Noble? Why not just wear period-accurate tunics? If they rip then that is an indicator of accuracy, since there is no evidence of feudal Europeans wearing Monk Clothe gees.

But like I said previous: if you want to wear gees to do Ringen for whatever reason, go for it. But don't imply that you need them for the vast majority of Ringen.

[tim_stl]

But don't imply that you need them for the vast majority of Ringen.

i don't see where anyone implied that, but you certainly assumed it, which was the point of me referencing the part of the video where they specifically state the purpose of the jacket.



tim

[captainzorikh]

I certainly find this garment nifty(TM)! The website is a little tough to spell, and by the time I figured it out, I had forgotten if it was .com, .net, etc, so here's a link that will take you straight to the page...

http://greatplainsfechtschule.webs.c...omuniforms.htm

She does not mention prices on the page, saying to e-mail her for that info. The rest of the procedure is described there.

Here's the website for the off-the-rack jackets also mentioned in the video (and also mentioned on the Finley Custom Uniforms page)...

http://www.revivalclothing.com/medie...ingjacket.aspx

It includes some description of the purpose and use of the jacket that would answer some of the issues raised here.

The Revival Clothing model is priced "From $149.95 to $159.95" so the Finley model must cost a little bit more than that.

It's not in my budget this month, but if it were, I would certainly pick one up, judging by the review here. I wonder what they would say if I tried to enter a BJJ tournament wearing it? Hmmm...(strokes beard with a sinister smirk)

[DdlR]

I'm really not trying to troll or nitpick here, but I am a cautious and distrustful person. Being critical of others (and yourself) is important and it can help us deconstruct the creations of others, like this video for example. So why not try it here?

You might take the time to re-watch the video review with more of an open mind, taking care to react to what is actually shown and said rather than making too many assumptions.

No-one has implied that jackets are required for the "vast majority" of ringen techniques; a number of people have correctly pointed out that they are required for some ringen techniques. On that basis, the obvious logic is, why not wear a jacket that is capable of withstanding those techniques in training?

I don't understand your point about skin; obviously, it's impossible to grab skin in the same way one can grab the cloth of a jacket.

The issue of "accuracy" was also explicitly addressed, to the effect that the design is not intended to be a verbatim reproduction of a historical garment; it's directly analogous to the modern judo gi in that it's inspired by a particular cultural/historical style, modified for modern training.

It's clearly explained in the video that they prefer to use Asian MA-style belts because they are strong and easily available; the belts are not used to mark rank or status in ringen training.