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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post

    HEMA (historical European martial arts) is the most recent specialized offshoot. These are typically serious martial arts groups who are painstakingly reviving various antiquated martial arts based on pressure-testing the detailed treatises produced by historical instructors dating back as far as the 13th century and through to the 19th. ARMA is only one (increasingly marginalized) association within the HEMA movement.
    Detailed treatises?

    Well if you consider books with two or three sentence long instruction (medieval german, extremely strong dialect, often in rhyme), with single-posture drawings or no pictures at all detailed...

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Detailed treatises?

    Well if you consider books with two or three sentence long instruction (medieval german, extremely strong dialect, often in rhyme), with single-posture drawings or no pictures at all detailed...
    I referred to the entire compass of "detailed treatises", from the 19th century back to the 13th; that includes everything from let's say, Allanson-Winn's "Broadsword and Singlestick" back to the I:33 manuscript (circa 1300 and obviously representing a then-extant tradition of sword and buckler play). Yes, there's a very great deal of detail in there; some 500 years' worth. What are you trying to take issue with?

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I referred to the entire compass of "detailed treatises", from the 19th century back to the 13th; that includes everything from let's say, Allanson-Winn's "Broadsword and Singlestick" back to the I:33 manuscript (circa 1300 and obviously representing a then-extant tradition of sword and buckler play). Yes, there's a very great deal of detail in there; some 500 years' worth. What are you trying to take issue with?
    There may be the one or other exception (like there is the one or other good CMA school), but the majority of HEMA/ARMA is larping away at the medieval manuals. They tend to pick out one or two and claim to be able to reconstruct a martial art based on that.

    I take issue with someone claiming to be able to learn (or reconstruct) sword and buckler fighting from this:



    A typical page of manuscript I.33

    I know you do not see a problem with that. But then you study the fighting style of Sherlock Holmes...

  4. #14
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    Is your argument specific to I:33? That's the earliest extant, and one of the least technically detailed treatises; even so, I've seen many people executing effective reconstructions of that style, tested in free-fencing/sparring.

    YouTube- hammaborg I.33, halpschilt vs. custodia prima 1.3
    YouTube- P1030806.MOV

    That no reconstruction will ever be 100% accurate and that no two interpretations will ever be identical is taken for granted in this field; the object is to produce a viable, modern martial art based as closely as possible on the historical sources. The only real question is "what constitutes an acceptable degree of accuracy", and most of us have agreed that this can only be answered by individuals, for themselves.

    As for many of the later treatises, many of them present exquisitely detailed systems complete with full illustrations, strategies and techniques fully described in the text, etc. - but surely you already know this (?) Even if not, it hardly requires a Holmesian level of detective work to achieve satisfactory results in HEMA; just lots of research and hard, honest training in line with the agreed-upon objectives.

  5. #15

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    ^^^
    This. Reconstruction of ancient MA is not 100% accurate, but doing the best they can, then pressure testing it to see how viable the techniques are will produce a system that is just as effective, if not more so, given the advances in training methodology we have now.

    The same thing happened with Pankration, which has become MMA in a hilarious outfit. But is a very respectable and effective MA, so I don't see how reconstructing fencing could be a negative.

    At the very least you'll have a cool, realistic swordfighting style that may have some European roots in the event you are challenged to a fight by a kendoka near a bunch of very long sticks.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealManOfSteel View Post
    Reconstruction of ancient MA is not 100% accurate, but doing the best they can, then pressure testing it to see how viable the techniques are will produce a system that is just as effective, if not more so, given the advances in training methodology we have now.
    Now that is one huge mouth full. Especially given the fact that (unlike people in ye olden days) you dont have the slightest bit of actual combat experience with the weapons in question.

    It is also why I start to think that Bullshido's community should start to rethink its stance on HEMA/ARMA stuff. If arguments like the above one are used to advertise seminars and payed tuition, thats misleading customers.

  7. #17
    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer. Join us... or die

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    Ye olden days... It wasn't that long ago that swords were commonplace on battlefields, they didn't all disappear in a poof of smoke as soon as the first gun arrived.

    They were still very much in use even at the start of the 20th century.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Now that is one huge mouth full. Especially given the fact that (unlike people in ye olden days) you dont have the slightest bit of actual combat experience with the weapons in question.
    Yes but we still want to play with swords because its cool. We can do some pressure testing with protective equipment.


    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    It is also why I start to think that Bullshido's community should start to rethink its stance on HEMA/ARMA stuff.
    Wait, our community has a stance on this stuff? It seemed to me that we had divergent opinions, and if there was a stance it would be found in the armory under a sticky, not in YMAS thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    If arguments like the above one are used to advertise seminars and payed tuition, thats misleading customers.
    It sounds to me like being honest about the product delivered. Being open about the fact that its a reconstructed MA and how. The only people who are going to get into this are people looking for historical reconstruction and larping.

  9. #19

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    I trained with this guy who instructs medieval weapons fighting. What I find funny is that he has a very legit Martial Arts background and engaged in local NHB fights... He got kicked out of larps for accidentally breaking someone's arm :P.

  10. #20

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    in regards to HEMA being realistic.

    Itsdamn near impossible to actually test the effectiveness of these MA's without shedding some blood. Here is an ACTUAL duel between two frenchmen in 1958

    YouTube- 1958 Epee Duel Lifar vs Cuevas


    Testing for realz is difficult because, as you can see these men are scared of getting stabbed.

    I would be to.

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