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  1. j.s.t. is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 3:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The clip with M. Safakhoo working the UTD is around the 26 sec. mark on this video. IMO, this is the best video that they have posted.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/THINKTOA...21/TbvHwyzlXks
  2. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2010 9:42pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, in my opinion, if you want to train in MMA then you go to an MMA school. If you want to learn kickboxing, you go to a kickboxing school. If you want to learn Kung Fu you go to a Kung Fu school. This Nabard system is a fake system that he made up based on some other stuff that he trained. Originally he put it off as Kung Fu to attract students. Then he changed the name, probably because people got wise to it.

    Just so that we are clear on the issue.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  3. j.s.t. is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2010 2:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    diesl_tke,
    I'm trying to figure out how you see it as a 'fake system'.
    He doesn't claim to teach MMA, kickboxing, or kung fu. He claims to teach what he has developed and he presents it as 'Nabard'...using a Persian word for 'combat'...which should be okay seeing as how he is a Persian man, who studied martial arts in Persia.
    Granted, the entirety of what he studied may not have been all Persian arts, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have developed a combat system incorporating traditional Persian training methods.

    If the question "Is Nabard CMA or Persian", I think it's only fair to assume that it's both, not one or the other. If someone is looking for an ancient Persian method of combat, Safakhoo's school may not be what they are looking for. However, if someone can accept that a modern martial art can be birthed in Persia, even though influenced by oriental martial arts (which were, ironically, influenced by Middle eastern culture), refined over time and evolve, then I think it is perfectly legitimate for it to be referred to as a Persian Martial art.

    I believe that Safakhoo used to refer to his system as 'Toas Kung Fu' because one of the systems that he learned (in Persia) was known as 'kung fu T'oa'. This is what he taught when he first arrived in the U.S.
    I believe that what happened over the course of time is that retained the parts of that system that he believed to be useful and disregarded the rest and at the same time researched and incorporated traditional Persian training techniques. These are my assumptions based on the transitions that I have witnessed in training at and visiting the school periodically over the course of several years.

    His approach is not all that different from that of Bruce Lee, if you think about it...
    He had his critics and challengers, too.
    Bruce continued to use the Chinese language in naming his modern art (Jeet Kune Do). Was it all Chinese? No. But but because Bruce was Chinese and was raised in China, he maintained a certain amount of 'Chinese Identity' even though he took residence in the U.S. and was influenced by several other martial arts from other countries.

    But all of this is just my perception and opinion. I really have no 'dog in this fight'.
    Peace.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2010 2:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by j.s.t. View Post
    If the question "Is Nabard CMA or Persian", I think it's only fair to assume that it's both, not one or the other. If someone is looking for an ancient Persian method of combat, Safakhoo's school may not be what they are looking for. However, if someone can accept that a modern martial art can be birthed in Persia, even though influenced by oriental martial arts (which were, ironically, influenced by Middle eastern culture), refined over time and evolve, then I think it is perfectly legitimate for it to be referred to as a Persian Martial art.
    Not when he claims to have resurrected a Persian martial art. That's the issue.


    I believe that Safakhoo used to refer to his system as 'Toas Kung Fu' because one of the systems that he learned (in Persia) was known as 'kung fu T'oa'. This is what he taught when he first arrived in the U.S.
    I believe that what happened over the course of time is that retained the parts of that system that he believed to be useful and disregarded the rest and at the same time researched and incorporated traditional Persian training techniques. These are my assumptions based on the transitions that I have witnessed in training at and visiting the school periodically over the course of several years.
    Proof please.


    His approach is not all that different from that of Bruce Lee, if you think about it...
    He had his critics and challengers, too.
    Yet, you can trace his teachers from wing chun to wrestling and Judo. No, he is nothing like Bruce Lee at all.

    Bruce continued to use the Chinese language in naming his modern art (Jeet Kune Do). Was it all Chinese? No. But but because Bruce was Chinese and was raised in China, he maintained a certain amount of 'Chinese Identity' even though he took residence in the U.S. and was influenced by several other martial arts from other countries.
    Stop.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2010 5:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think he is being fraudulent because the average person on the street doesn't have the knowledge to make an informed opinion about a martial art school. Because of their ignorance, they are relying on a school to be honest about their background when they look into it. If a person says they train in Kung Fu be it, Tao, Chun, or what ever; they believe them. That doesn't make it right, but it happens all the time. But a teacher should be honest about what their qualifications to teach are and what their background is. I don't think that Safhakoo is.

    The problem is that he started out calling it Kung Fu and then changed it to Persian martial arts. You are telling me that it is not Kung Fu because he has changed the system. And it is not Persian because it really came from Kung Fu, but he was in Persia when he learned it?

    So I am training in Kung Fu right now. However, I am American living in America. So can I open a school and tech some of my Kung Fu, but call it American Martial art?

    Yes I could, would it be truly an American Martial art? No it really wouldn't. I would be lying. Another question would be why would he do this? It could be because his Kung Fu training is not legit. Or because it was legit, but he didn't learn long enough to justify teaching in it, and didn't want anyone asking his instructors. Or because he learned the stuff on DVD, and now is making up his own art so that he doesn't have to say who his real instructor was.

    When someone can't tell you who their teacher is, I call bullshit.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  6. old guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2010 6:58pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the things about master Safakhoo, is that until he considered you a serious student, you'd get nothing from him. It used to take about 2 years before he considered you a real student. Until then, you helped support the people he considered serious. Often times he let them attend for free.

    Back on subject, if the kung fu toa forms should be classified as CMA and he's using them as the core forms for Nabard, then Nabard couldn't be Persian. I think it's obvious that his style is evolving, and it started primarily w/ kung fu toa. It may turn into something that could realistically be called a modern Persian Nabard, but I don't think it's there yet. What Persian martial arts are there anyway, and can someone point to a reliable source, regarding Persian martial arts? I think he may be guilty of jumping the gun. I've seen that happen before. He considers that the changes he's made to the toa system make it his personal style, which is why it used to be TOAS. I think he fully intends to develop a modern Persian Nabard style.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2010 9:08pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    One of the things about master Safakhoo, is that until he considered you a serious student, you'd get nothing from him. It used to take about 2 years before he considered you a real student. Until then, you helped support the people he considered serious. Often times he let them attend for free.
    Yeah okay.


    Back on subject, if the kung fu toa forms should be classified as CMA and he's using them as the core forms for Nabard, then Nabard couldn't be Persian. I think it's obvious that his style is evolving, and it started primarily w/ kung fu toa. It may turn into something that could realistically be called a modern Persian Nabard, but I don't think it's there yet. What Persian martial arts are there anyway, and can someone point to a reliable source, regarding Persian martial arts? I think he may be guilty of jumping the gun. I've seen that happen before. He considers that the changes he's made to the toa system make it his personal style, which is why it used to be TOAS. I think he fully intends to develop a modern Persian Nabard style.
    Just because you teach in Persia, your CMA based art doesn't suddenly become Persian.
  8. old guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2010 4:16am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Yeah okay.


    Just because you teach in Persia, your CMA based art doesn't suddenly become Persian.
    Agreed. There's certainly a difference between creating a new style, and resurrecting an old one. However, if he had managed to locate someone that actually was knowledgeable about a legitimate Persian style, I doubt that anyone outside of the inner circle would be privy to the information. Currently, I think that Nabard is still TOAS w/ some elements of Varzeshe Bastani added. Of course, I'm unable to state that as fact, considering the time frame I attended. What's kind of interesting is http://nabardinternational.com/index.html. Unfinished, but note the domain name.
  9. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2010 8:32am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originating in Persia, Nabard was brought to the United States in 1983 by its creator Master Safakhoo. Since that time Nabard has continued to evolve into a respectable effective martial art through Master Safakhoo's dedicated research, passion, and experience.
    Well this is in direct conflict with the Kung Fu that he originally taught. Did he bring Nabard over or Kung Fu? And if his style is still evolving, then he is no longer teaching the Original Nabard system that he brought over and should at least be clear about that.

    Due to its extensive Persian roots, Nabard is also referred to as The Persian Art of Combat. Created in Persia by Master Marco Safakhoo, Nabard is the embodiment of the survival strategies, concepts and philosophies of its creator.
    http://www.thinktoas.com/nabard_history.html

    It just looks to me like he started teaching Shitty Kung Fu and eventually said, Hey wait, I'm Persian, I'll make up my own style and call it Persian martial arts!!

    So why doesn't everyone just create their own martial arts instead of paying all this money to train in Marco's made up martial art?
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  10. old guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2010 9:44am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    Well this is in direct conflict with the Kung Fu that he originally taught. Did he bring Nabard over or Kung Fu? And if his style is still evolving, then he is no longer teaching the Original Nabard system that he brought over and should at least be clear about that.
    I'm sure he doesn't write this stuff, although he should be responsible for screening and approving it. Keep in mind that he didn't speak English when he first came to the states.
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    It just looks to me like he started teaching Shitty Kung Fu and eventually said, Hey wait, I'm Persian, I'll make up my own style and call it Persian martial arts!!
    Pure speculation. Remember that it was originally marketed as kung fu, originating from toas, modified then renamed T.O.A.S. As far as being shitty kung fu, that's a matter of opinion, not fact. Certainly a lot, if not most of the video demos are poorly executed.
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    So why doesn't everyone just create their own martial arts instead of paying all this money to train in Marco's made up martial art?
    I'm pretty sure that this is what frequently occurs, and explains why hundreds of different styles exist. It seems that everyone is a grandmaster these days.
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