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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2010 12:54am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Yeah, we're completely talking past each other here.
    I'm looking for existing combos that people have put together that are reliable that they use over and over again, yes a "List of moves". But to use as a training aid for drilling to help develop the ability to FEEL how moves connect to each other and how your opponent can be forced to react and how not and to simply develop a better feel overall for how and when you can combine techniques. I'm looking for tools to use while drilling, not while rolling.

    So let me step back one and rephrase: How do you guys drill to help improve your ability to combine techniques successfully? Do you drill for that at all or do you just expect it to happen naturally as people develop?
    I teach Judo. I even teach ne waza at Judo. But similar things, as a teaching tool, are useful for throwing as well. I teach "canned" combinations both standing and on the ground. This is not necessarily thinking that the students will apply those canned sequences exactly as they learn them (although they sometimes do). The idea is that they learn the principle of action-reaction in a practical and applicable way. Because the point is, without an understanding of action-reaction, your performance is going to be static and dead. This understanding has to be in your bones, not just your head.

    So, from a teaching perspective, "set" sequences of techniques that illustrate practical or realistic action-reaction situations are very useful in my experience. If done enough, along with randori at various levels of intensity, students get a idea/feel for how to adjust to different situations.

    These sorts of drills are not always the easiest thing to set up and get students to do, especially beginners. Beginners have to learn the basics while also starting to be trained in action-reaction. As a teacher, it can be difficult to juggle the needs of everyone involved, especially in a large class.

    Many "teachers" either do not understand this, due to their own lack of experience at their art and/or teaching in general.

    Ben
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Silent Guardian

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    Lafayette, LA
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2010 9:36am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The main problem with teaching a sequence drill is that beginners don't get the point that they have to do X when you do A so you can go to B. They for the most part believe that they will never do that and resist the drill and make it difficult for tori to so it with success.

    So many times it comes to your training partners if you are going have any success learning combinations.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Grand Blanc, MI
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2010 2:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    The main problem with teaching a sequence drill is that beginners don't get the point that they have to do X when you do A so you can go to B. They for the most part believe that they will never do that and resist the drill and make it difficult for tori to so it with success.

    So many times it comes to your training partners if you are going have any success learning combinations.
    Which is why the A attack needs to be full out trying for success. Either it will work or it won't. If it didn't, how uke defended needs to be studied to find the B or C attacks (left or right) to deal with the defensive movement.

    Yes, a noob might always do something odd that messes up the plan, but thats what makes randori fun.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2010 4:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    The main problem with teaching a sequence drill is that beginners don't get the point that they have to do X when you do A so you can go to B. They for the most part believe that they will never do that and resist the drill and make it difficult for tori to so it with success.

    So many times it comes to your training partners if you are going have any success learning combinations.
    That would be my experience as well. Without good uke who react properly, drilling action-reaction is very frustrating. Often a very specific reaction is necessary for a given combination, hell, usually!

    I spend a lot of time teaching beginners how to be good uke/training partners, and I hammer home the point that without a good uke, learning Judo is very difficult.

    Something about mutual welfare and benefit fits in here somewhere.

    Ben
  5. Res Judicata is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2010 11:42am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're wise to teach people how to be a good uke. Being a good uke is an underrated skill. For example, my judo instructor recently had us drill a classic combination that depends on uke's reaction: tai otoshi --> uke steps over --> uchi mata. But practice was worthless if tori didn't throw a tai otoshi hard enough and uke didn't respond at the proper time in the proper way.

    One guy at our dojo, a former wrestler, has such a hard time being a good uke -- he wants to resist everything -- which makes him frustrating to work with on these sorts of things. How do you teach people like that? (Beyond "relax").

    Obviously, being a good uke is similarly important in ground work -- but the uke/tori dynamic is less clear. I understand what Kintanon is saying, but beyond a few canned moves I've never really been able to effectively practice complex chains on the ground. To practice sweeps like that, you really seem to need to have a good passer to practice against -- someone who knows how to react properly -- see where you end up, and work from there.

    But, on the other hand, what do I know. I'm not exceptionally skilled and my passing game -- the best part of my BJJ game -- is based more on strategies than specific techniques.
    Last edited by Res Judicata; 4/23/2010 11:51am at .
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2010 1:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    You're wise to teach people how to be a good uke. Being a good uke is an underrated skill. For example, my judo instructor recently had us drill a classic combination that depends on uke's reaction: tai otoshi --> uke steps over --> uchi mata. But practice was worthless if tori didn't throw a tai otoshi hard enough and uke didn't respond at the proper time in the proper way.

    One guy at our dojo, a former wrestler, has such a hard time being a good uke -- he wants to resist everything -- which makes him frustrating to work with on these sorts of things. How do you teach people like that? (Beyond "relax").

    Obviously, being a good uke is similarly important in ground work -- but the uke/tori dynamic is less clear. I understand what Kintanon is saying, but beyond a few canned moves I've never really been able to effectively practice complex chains on the ground. To practice sweeps like that, you really seem to need to have a good passer to practice against -- someone who knows how to react properly -- see where you end up, and work from there.

    But, on the other hand, what do I know. I'm not exceptionally skilled and my passing game -- the best part of my BJJ game -- is based more on strategies than specific techniques.
    You are exactly right. My students make the most progress when they practice solo with me, because I consciously make the decision as to how to act/react to them to maximize their learning/exposure. I can feel exactly what they are doing, and correct them on the spot.

    Beginners and intermediate level students just don't know enough about what they are doing to help each other like that, although some individuals are exceptional. Also, they have to learn how to do the technique (pin, choke, armbar, whatever) correctly as well, so it is a double burden.

    If your passing game is more based on strategies than technique, that is a higher level than simply trying to memorize sequences of passes, etc., although learning and drilling single methods has a lot of merit. I have to sometimes go look up a reference, because I can't remember a specific attack sequence, and it's important to teach the right sequence to beginner, because they won't know how to adjust.

    Ben
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