Sweeps

[Kintanon]

Upa: Do you not think that drilling "Known good" combos helps develop the ability to feel that kind of thing on the fly? I use the triangle/armbar/omoplata combo a lot, but I think we might have drilled that sequence as a combo maybe once or twice total.
I only started using the combo because I liked omoplatas and triangles and couldn't pull off armbars at the time, so "faking" an armbar to get the omo worked great for me.

How can it not be better to teach those combos and setups together and drill them repeatedly? What other combos are out there that people are drilling? What are some little details that help improve your sweep percentages that go along with the the combos?

[UpaLumpa]

I don't know, sometimes what really happens in the match is you feel the position and the sweep happens. But sometimes you throw a deliberate combination without waiting for the reaction. Like when you're boxing, sometimes you throw a jab and see what happens and sometimes you throw a jab-cross-hook as a 'canned' sequence.

This isn't a mutual exclusivity issue. When it comes to sweeps though I really don't think canned chains are applicable. Here's a simplistic example, a couple of weeks ago my instructor was showing a sweep and as you describe the common defence to that and the sweeper's response. The issue was that there were multiple ways the "sweepie" was going to respond and so multiple options had to be shown. There was not a feasible canned sequence, you needed to recognize how your opponent was reacting. Showing this as a series was a pedagogical tool whereby the importance of not attempting a sweep in isolation and being properly sensitive to your opponent's reactions were demonstrated.

[UpaLumpa]

Upa: Do you not think that drilling "Known good" combos helps develop the ability to feel that kind of thing on the fly?

I've explicitly said several times already that it is useful as a pedagogical tool.

However, learning a bunch of chains of moves should not be the point in my opinion. All the good guys at my gym chain attacks together but this isn't some rote sequence it is in response to their opponent's actions and anticipation, on the fly, of their opponent's actions.

What other combos are out there that people are drilling?

Maybe I am wrong but I really doubt Jacare, Roger, Garcia and guys of a similar level are trying to drill specific combos. Of course I'm just a shitty purple belt.

[Kintanon]

I think you're missing the point of learning and drilling combinations. It's not so that you have a list of combos to bust out randomly during rolling, it's to develop the ability to transition between those moves and others, and to help learn how moves connect to each other and what moves connect well. Many people may not realize that some moves can be connected to each other, they've never see it before. So people who have seen those moves connected who can put together drills that help you learn how to connect them and them practicing connecting them can help them learn faster. Instead of me having to spontaneously rediscover that I can connect triangle chokes -> armbar -> giftwrap sweep someone can demonstrate that and show me a way to drill those.
Maybe by the time you hit purple belt you already had 4-5 solid combos that you just hit. You know unconciously that when you go for a particular sweep that most of the time when your opponent defends it will set them up for a counter, etc... But why not codify that kind of thing and teach it to the blue belts under you so that they aren't forced to rediscover those combinations? Maybe with that head start they can develop their own combinations faster than they otherwise would.

[jnp]

I generally don't think of chains when doing sweeps, although there are a few that work well in a sequence I usually like to just feel where my opponent has most of his weight, take away the corresponding "leg", get underneath his center of gravity, and roll him in that direction. I know it's not as clear as do move A, then B, if both fail do C; but just learning to feel a person's balance (and lack thereof) is more important then learning specific sweeps IMO.

This is how the chains that I still use developed. I'd throw a triangle and they would posture up. After a time, I learned to disengage my legs and go for a sweep. Then they would base out. After more time, I started to try to sweep the other way when they based.

In other words, I don't really use the chains I learned in situational drilling. I use chains that are based off of my opponent's most common reactions. When he defends "off script" of the chain, I can feel it and use something applicable but different than my standard progression.

[UpaLumpa]

But why not codify that kind of thing and teach it to the blue belts under you so that they aren't forced to rediscover those combinations? Maybe with that head start they can develop their own combinations faster than they otherwise would.

Because I honestly don't think that's what you're seeing when you watch good guys rapidly move through a bunch of attacks.

You start off by saying:

It's not so that you have a list of combos to bust out randomly during rolling, it's to develop the ability to transition between those moves and others, and to help learn how moves connect to each other and what moves connect well.

but then:

Maybe by the time you hit purple belt you already had 4-5 solid combos that you just hit. ... why not codify that kind of thing

Even though you say you don't, you do want a list of moves chained together you can read off of a script but maybe there aren't real combinations, simply responses to the options you allow your opponent. JNP's combo is still him reacting on the fly.He's just done it enough to anticipate what his opponent's options are going to be and what that leaves them vulnerable to.

Look I may well be completely off base but when I roll with good guys I really do not get any sense that they're rolling off of some script. They have an idea of what can be transitioned to but it is still, necessarily, fluid.

[Kintanon]

Yeah, we're completely talking past each other here.
I'm looking for existing combos that people have put together that are reliable that they use over and over again, yes a "List of moves". But to use as a training aid for drilling to help develop the ability to FEEL how moves connect to each other and how your opponent can be forced to react and how not and to simply develop a better feel overall for how and when you can combine techniques. I'm looking for tools to use while drilling, not while rolling.

So let me step back one and rephrase: How do you guys drill to help improve your ability to combine techniques successfully? Do you drill for that at all or do you just expect it to happen naturally as people develop?

[pauli]

i've seen (and felt) people clearly working on a specific sequence; however, this is almost exclusively in conjunction with a significant skill differential. i don't see it much without that disparity, though that may simply be poor observational skills on my part.

preset combos are good for self diagnostics while rolling, but not a goal in and of themselves.

[jnp]

So let me step back one and rephrase: How do you guys drill to help improve your ability to combine techniques successfully? Do you drill for that at all or do you just expect it to happen naturally as people develop?

It's not drilling and I know you don't want to hear this, but good old mat time is probably the best tool to develop the sensitivity you need to know what to do next when your partner defends move "A".

That said, drilling combos can help develop some sensitivity. Better yet, unscripted flow drills are pretty useful.

I use two types of flow drills, scripted and unscripted. Scripted flowing is simply situational drilling. I go for "A", you defend, so I react with "B" etc. Unscripted flowing is rolling at less than 50% intensity with one partner the designated attacker and the other defends. I go for "A", he defends normally at a slow pace. I transition to "B", more defense means I go to "C" and so on.

The idea is to work on finesse and minimizing reaction time between separate moves. You don't know how your partner is going to defend. This, as well as the reduced pace, helps you plot out additional paths on the grappling roadmap. If you need to stop and think about where you want to go next, do so. Your partner should only defend as a reaction to your moves, otherwise you're just sparring at low intensity.

[UpaLumpa]

Flow drills is what I was thinking too, of course I don't flow.