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  1. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 9:34am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    How hard is it to throw someone who locks their arms, squats, and won't move? Its so hard there are rules in Judo against taking that position. BTW, its why most sweeps fail.
    What is the point of this thread then?
  2. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 9:36am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I understood it the point of this thread was to discuss some combinations of sweep/sub combos for jiujitsu that work well together and can be drilled together the same way that the only one I know of, the Situp Sweep/Kimura/Guillotine combo, can be trained.
    So far no one has really brought any others to the table.
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 9:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    I don't understand why you would think sweeps are any different than anything else. Throws rarely work in isolation. Takedowns rarely work in isolation. Submissions rarely work in isolation. Escapes rarely work in isolation. KO's rarely work in isolation. Why expect sweeps to work in isolation or expect them to work easily against trained opponents.

    Proper kuzushi in sweeps comes about the same way as proper kuzushi in throws. Yes it may be harder because a more sturdy base can be had on the ground but the same principles apply. Athletes can often force throws when it takes great skill to do the throw with good kuzushi. The same is true of sweeps except it is harder to force them.
    That "you" would be whom?

    If it is I you are projecting into my thoughts and points something I neither inferred or implied. However, you have restated my thoughts and points on the subject.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  4. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:00am

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    What is the point of this thread then?
    Sigh....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  5. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:01am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    As I understood it the point of this thread was to discuss some combinations of sweep/sub combos for jiujitsu that work well together and can be drilled together the same way that the only one I know of, the Situp Sweep/Kimura/Guillotine combo, can be trained.
    So far no one has really brought any others to the table.
    Likely because I have to spend so much time on non-issues such as those that have been moved all ready....

    ...you can't say I didn't try.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  6. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:04am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    As I understood it the point of this thread was to discuss some combinations of sweep/sub combos for jiujitsu that work well together and can be drilled together the same way that the only one I know of, the Situp Sweep/Kimura/Guillotine combo, can be trained.
    So far no one has really brought any others to the table.
    Triangle/armbar/omoplata, for a start. People are training BJJ and not doing this? Every time I've ever been taught a sweep it's been in the form "You do this, then if that doesn't work it's because he's postured this way and then you can do this.."
  7. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:09am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    If it is I you are projecting into my thoughts and points something I neither inferred or implied.
    Dude, read your own post.


    Anyway, there was an interesting thread on the topic of kuzushi recently. There was a video about its use for sweeps that I found drastically misunderstood the idea of kuzushi. Similarly the idea of set chains of sweeps I find also only clumsily applies the idea of kuzushi.
    The applicability of a particular sweep is predicated on your opponent's movement and where they are off base. Certainly chained attacks fit into that but really only as a pedagogical tool. How long of a chain can you really remember? I'm an idiot and can't remember any. I can, however, feel how my opponent is reacting and recognize how I am forcing them to react and exploit that.
    Last edited by UpaLumpa; 4/19/2010 10:20am at .
  8. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:11am

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Every time I've ever been taught a sweep it's been in the form "You do this, then if that doesn't work it's because he's postured this way and then you can do this.."
    To me this is really to introduce things. To be able to improvise you need to learn to recognize this on the fly. Against good guys you need to improvise.
  9. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:23am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    To me this is really to introduce things. To be able to improvise you need to learn to recognize this on the fly. Against good guys you need to improvise.
    I don't know, sometimes what really happens in the match is you feel the position and the sweep happens. But sometimes you throw a deliberate combination without waiting for the reaction. Like when you're boxing, sometimes you throw a jab and see what happens and sometimes you throw a jab-cross-hook as a 'canned' sequence.

    Not to mention those occasions where some weird kinaesthetic magic thing happens and out pops something you never even practised.
  10. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2010 10:25am

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    Dude, read your own post.


    Anyway, there was an interesting thread on the topic of kuzushi recently. There was a video about its use that I found drastically misunderstood the idea of kuzushi. Similarly the idea of set chains of sweeps I find also misapplies the idea of kuzushi.
    The applicability of a particular sweep is predicated on your opponent's movement and where they are off base. Certainly chained attacks fit into that but really only as a pedagogical tool. How long of a chain can you really remember? I'm an idiot and can't remember any. I can, however, feel how my opponent is reacting and recognize how I am forcing them to react and exploit that.
    I generally don't think of chains when doing sweeps, although there are a few that work well in a sequence I usually like to just feel where my opponent has most of his weight, take away the corresponding "leg", get underneath his center of gravity, and roll him in that direction. I know it's not as clear as do move A, then B, if both fail do C; but just learning to feel a person's balance (and lack thereof) is more important then learning specific sweeps IMO.
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