Sweeps

**datdamnmachine** · Posted On: 4/15/2010 1:27am

Originally Posted by David Koresh Jr.

I'm a big fan of using the Armbar to pendulum sweep, to omoplata/sweep. I spam that usually for gi/nogi. In gi it's scissor sweep, armbar, pendulum sweep. Another is arm drag, hip bump, loop choke (gi)/guillotine(nogi), kimura options. This is all closed guard.

There's a nice metaphor for helping with sweeps that I heard. It's like rocking a canoe over, back and forth back and forth till it tips.

Could one of the better guys go over some of the basics of the pendulum sweep I've heard and seen several variations that work but wanted to get some more perspective.

(for example, Phil Migliarese version I've seen here as opposed to the get a 90 degree angle version)
YouTube- Phil Migliarese shows the flower sweep (BJJ Brazilian JiuJitsu)

I've seen Hermes Franca pull these types of combos off as well. The general idea being your not just chaining submissions with other submissions or sweeps with other sweeps, you are chaining submissions and sweeps together. Another underused aspect is perform a technical standup. Using the sweeps and submissions to create a technical standup or use the act of performing a technical standup to setup sweeps and submissions. Against someone who wants to keep you down and stay on top, it'[s perfect bait.

Originally Posted by danno

the problem with a lot of sweeps is that when you start to open up and try something you get punched in the face. when you close up and cling to them like a barnacle you'll take less damage. in fact very little will happen at all. it's an example of how it's much easier to restrain someone than it is to finish them.

a couple of other people here have talked along these lines, but in MMA training i often find success with a high guard -> armbar/triangle/omoplata/flower sweep combination. you can lock up their arms to stop the punches and simultaneously go for subs and sweeps. otherwise i'll do something like kick them off and scramble.

Punching is key, but there is where an overactive Guard comes in. So much emphasis seems to be on holding and stationary control to keep damage low. Another option is to throw so many techniques (whether submissions, sweeps, stand-up attempts, etc) that your opponent has no choice but to defend. The moment he tries to get a shot in, you make them pay. There is always a bit of a "reset" if you will when someone is throwing strikes and a point where, depending on how they strike, they over extend something. Its difficult to do, especially when you don't want to get smacked around, but with practice, it can be perfected and used very effectively. Just like in regular stand-up exchanges, when you go for a strike you leave yourself open to a counter attack. Who says the ground has to be any different.

**BKR** · Posted On: 4/16/2010 9:50pm

Originally Posted by Coach Josh

I would have to agree that you will need to chain in order to get a sweep against established players from the CLOSED guard. Personally I have given up on playing closed guard in both gi and nogi/MMA.

In the gi I am playing an open guard game now that is 1000000 times better than any closed guard I have ever done. Utilizing grips, body weight, and momentum i.e. good Judo, I am sweeping roughly 80% of my attempts on the white and blue belts and way over 50% on the purple and brown belt(we have one of each regularly in the club).

This is due to the fact that I am able to generate more power with my body than in the closed guard and I have more maneuverability due to the fact that I am able to keep the guy away with my feet and legs. It is actually quite fun and almost like I am doing sacrifice throws from my back.

Right now I am improving my guard game and just working to mainly sweep and get top position. I feel I am much better attacking from that position and by combining it with my take down ability I should be able to handle any situation.

I mean let's be for real here . The last thing you expect from a Judo BB in the guard is to get sweep with a Rolletta inverted hoist sweep. But I will bust that move out like Young MC with a fat roll at a strip club.

Nogi and MMA I work mainly butterfly and half butterfly guard if I am on my back. I try to stay off my back in this setting more than in the gi. I also teach more escapes and sweeps from this position than submissions. Mainly just to train the guys that it is not a jiujitsu match its a fucking fight and you should not lay on your back in a fight.

It's interesting we have both come to the same place in our ne waza, Josh. I never really ever learned any "closed guard" in all of my judo training, it was all what would be called open guard, butterfly, half butterfly, etc., with sweeps (which of course were not given a name in my Judo training).

I to do not do mma, although I have done some no gi work.

Ben

**BKR** · Posted On: 4/16/2010 9:57pm

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

i'm having a lot of trouble pulling off sweeps in judo newaza. of course part of it is that i am outweighed by 50+lbs most of the time, but i feel like it's much harder to sweep people who are using a pinning style than someone going for subs.

most of the time i can get back to half guard against the brown belts and lower belts, but keeping it or managing a sweep is a whole different story. i know that the answer is to get better at sweeps, but i'm having a lot of trouble adjusting to the gi grappling game, as it's so much easier for them the lock down my ability to move. it's a lot harder to get a hip out and get onto my side, and even if i manage to get a deep half guard and go for an "old school" sweep, i rarely pull it off, other than against the teenagers who weigh even less than i do.

i asked my sensei and he said "mmm, that is because you are a lightweight." i think in his mind, i have a good defensive newaza game that will lead to getting stood up in judo matches, and maybe he feels that's good enough for now. i'm not sure, really.

Interesting post. It is easier to lock someone down in a gi, but I think as you progress you will find there are ways around that issue.

I have a much harder time sweeping bigger, heavier guys who know what they are doing. But then it is hard to sweep anyone who has much training, regardless of size.

Sorry for the rambling, when I do ne waza, I don't really think about stuff anymore, top, bottom, side, slow or fast it's kind of all getting to be the same for me now.

Why not try the "pinning style" yourself. I suppose as long time Judo guy that is what I do? I can move pretty fast and loose on top when I want too, but as i get older I do that less and less.

Ben

**Ming Loyalist** · Posted On: 4/17/2010 12:09pm

Originally Posted by BKR

Interesting post. It is easier to lock someone down in a gi, but I think as you progress you will find there are ways around that issue.

I have a much harder time sweeping bigger, heavier guys who know what they are doing. But then it is hard to sweep anyone who has much training, regardless of size.

Sorry for the rambling, when I do ne waza, I don't really think about stuff anymore, top, bottom, side, slow or fast it's kind of all getting to be the same for me now.

Why not try the "pinning style" yourself. I suppose as long time Judo guy that is what I do? I can move pretty fast and loose on top when I want too, but as i get older I do that less and less.

Ben

thanks for the feedback, i appreciate the advice.

as to trying to play a pinning game, i actually do try, because i didn't come to judo to work my submission grappling skills, i came to learn judo. with that in mind, i work on the weakest parts of my judo newaza game, and that is pinning and escaping from pins.

the problem is that a lot of the guys are big enough that they can bench-press me off of them when i try to pin them, so after they do that, i will go for a choke or submission, and then usually not get it and then get caught in a pin, or stalled in half guard.

**Zapruder** · Posted On: 4/17/2010 12:54pm

Originally Posted by Mtripp

mock me if you wish, but next time put a condom on your head. If you are going to act like a dick you should look like one.

With one post I put this forum back on track. You accomplished what?

Just post one of his "fight" videos, nothing more will need to be said about that joke. OR you could bring up him getting the **** kicked out of him by the kung fu guys and claiming he won....OR...

Now, back on track, rubber guard has not gotten much attention here. I LOVE using mission control to set up both attacks and sweeps. I will threaten with the triangle so that they defend and I can get my hips out to the side, once I make the adjustment I can let go and either sweep or stand up or go for a side choke or armlock, depending on what I have available at the time.

Most of these chains in no gi look more like a flow chart than a direct chain of events, there is just too much movement to be taken into account. (I have to run to lunch now I will post more when I get back)

**BKR** · Posted On: 4/17/2010 8:44pm

Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

thanks for the feedback, i appreciate the advice.

as to trying to play a pinning game, i actually do try, because i didn't come to judo to work my submission grappling skills, i came to learn judo. with that in mind, i work on the weakest parts of my judo newaza game, and that is pinning and escaping from pins.

the problem is that a lot of the guys are big enough that they can bench-press me off of them when i try to pin them, so after they do that, i will go for a choke or submission, and then usually not get it and then get caught in a pin, or stalled in half guard.

I understand what you are saying. Part of the "pinning game" is to be able to shift your weight and pressure around to counter the bench pressing escapes, and to be able to anticipate what the person is going to do to escape, and be ready for that. I can't really give you any advice on that, other than the idea/concept that the "pinning game" is not all about just locking someone down and not moving/being moved for 25 seconds (and I'm not sure that is what you think, I'm speaking in general).

Sometimes it's not possible to get a submission from a given escape attempt, you have to move to a position where you can maintain control, and either bait (which won't necessarily work on experienced guys), or wait until the time is right.

Sorry if you are familiar with that stuff already, I know you have been grappling for a while, but am never really sure exactly what someone has been exposed to or practiced.

Ben

**Kintanon** · Posted On: 4/17/2010 8:57pm

Ming: I'm sure I'm smaller than you are, most people can bench press me off of them. They key for me has been airplane/helicopter drills. Get in side control and have your opponent try to bench press you off while you practice circling towards his head and keeping your weight down. Let him continue trying to escape as you move back and forth from side to north south, to the other side and back. Be dynamic, pop up to Knee on Belly and back down, etc...

***jnp*** · Posted On: 4/18/2010 1:08am

Missing posts moved here: Even mods take a day off - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 4/18/2010 5:17am

<<<Mark: I know most Judoka are against training from the knees, but do you think that there might be some value to training from the knees in Judo as it relates to figuring out how to put Sweeps together on the ground?>>>

Ummm.... not so sure about judoka being against the "from the knees" thing. Yes, if I am dealing with a jackass I might make a reference about it, but if being honest about it, it has a lot going for it.

First, and foremost, it avoids some hard core banging to the mat. That is kinda tough on the body and not every class needs to be that hard on you. However, if it becomes a session about who can pull guard first, then it is of no value to Judo. Why? Well because almost no one can pass a closed guard in Judo before you get stood up.

Very old Judo guys will remember mat randori where you sit on the mat, back to back, and you then "go." I think this has value as well because there is a "scramble" element to the entire game, and it prevents the "quick pull guard" thing.

Personally I think the most neglected part in most schools are development drills. Examples?

1. Rodeo ride: You have their back with rear mount, one hand on the lapel, you get 10 seconds to submit the person.

2. Turn the turtle: As it sounds, you have 10 seconds to turn the turtle on its back.

There are many more but you get the idea. Because of the limited time rules; if we are speaking about Contest Judo under IJF rules, ne waza needs to be a very fast and explosive thing. Drills of this nature assist in that skill set.

**Nefron** · Posted On: 4/18/2010 4:07pm

Originally Posted by Mtripp

Very old Judo guys will remember mat randori where you sit on the mat, back to back, and you then "go." I think this has value as well because there is a "scramble" element to the entire game, and it prevents the "quick pull guard" thing.

We are doing this on a regular basis. I thought this was standard practice everywhere.