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  1. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2010 8:05pm


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Muso Shinden Jushin ryu iaido?

    Anyone familiar with this school of Iaido? I know of Muso Shinden ryu (and have heard of Jushin ryu), but after seeing this ryuha listed as a member of my prefecture's iaido org I could only come up with a few mentions of Muso shinden jushin ryu such as at the end of this article. Beyond that, would a muso like iaido school complement kendo well?
  2. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2010 10:29pm

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    The article you linked too pretty much explains it.

    Jushin or Yushin (Ryu) was part of the founder's real name. Bearing in mind Muso Shinden Ryu stems from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu - and Hakudo Nakayama Sensei renamed and formalised what we know as MSR today, I'd suggest that Muso Shinden Yushin Ryu is just part of the system's overall lineage and possibly only now exists in a small amount. But I’m not an historian of the origins of MSR or MJER.

    In terms of your question about Iaido complimenting Kendo.

    Yes, however; within kendo you will also study Kendo kata. The purpose is to ensure you retain a connection to the sword rather than just shinai.

    Many Kendoka, including myself choose to study a koryu iai ryu-ha, I do so because the training and technique of iai is far more extensive than the limited kata within Kendo. I do not study Seitei Iai.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  3. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2010 12:59am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    Thanks for the input Dave-
    Do you find iaido compatable/integratable in a kendo sparring enviroment (shinai cuts) or mostly as a seperate entity with kendo offering aliveness and footwork but not the proper enviroment for kenjutsu/iaijutsu? I realize of course that if you are doing kendo, you play kendo (and I am enjoying kendo very much on its own so far), but I'd love to coax a little bit of aliveness/application from a koryu if I could.
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2010 9:51am

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    The physical use of a shinai is entirely different to that of a bokkuto or Iaito but the mental attitude towards your actions remains the same for either weapon.

    In terms of aliveness from a koryu iai ryuha.. it isn't going to happen. You are going to spend a considerable amount of time studying solo kata and if you're lucky enough to have an instructor who can teach you paired application, it's still going to be largely kata based.

    You will however be able to study the application of test cutting at some point in your iai study, but that's about as "alive" as you're going to get.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  5. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2010 10:34am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    would a more dueling focused kenjutsu style (as opposed to solo iai kata) complement kendo better then in terms of being able to mesh kendo and the koryu? There is an itto ryu school (not ono-ha though) which is somewhat nearby...
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    Posted On:
    4/01/2010 2:36pm

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    I can't honestly say mate because I have no experience of such schools.

    What you have to bear in mind is that even though Kendo is considered Gendai budo, it is very regimented, likewise you may find the study of a Koryu Kenjutsu ryu-ha equally regimented and this may be detrimental to either or both studies. I guess you'd have to test the water yourself and see what the situation is.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  7. Big_Boss is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/01/2010 6:37pm


     Style: Transitioning as usual

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl View Post
    would a more dueling focused kenjutsu style (as opposed to solo iai kata) complement kendo better then in terms of being able to mesh kendo and the koryu? There is an itto ryu school (not ono-ha though) which is somewhat nearby...
    I'm not OP of statement, but I'll chime in on this.
    Neither Kenjutsu nor Iaijutsu -imo- really "compliment" Kendo any more than traditional Jujutsu compliments Judo or BJJ..Like a Tiger and Lion, part of the cat family but different animals.
    Seitei Iaido (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei Iaido) is the main "compliment" to Kendo. It was devised for that exact purpose (IE most head Kendo sensei seeing their Kendo students were lacking proper swordwork outside of a shinai)

    That's really all you need. Seitei is not a Koryu or anything and it has no false air about it. It is what it is.
    Combining the two you get a kind of wheel and spoke effect, an overall better understanding of Japanese swordsmanship, but I don't think its going to fill any major holes in your Kendo.
    The few Kenjutsu ryu I have seen are far more in tune with Iai than Kendo. Iai may focus on drawing of the sword, but cuts/paired kata still exists (IE tried and true saying "Once the sword has been drawn, Iaijutsu becomes Kenjutsu) Thats the only clear distinction. I

    Sorry if I'm making this rather lengthy, but basically any form of Iai or Kenjutsu is not going to help your Kendo.
  8. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2010 5:21am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Stiglitz View Post
    I can't honestly say mate because I have no experience of such schools.

    What you have to bear in mind is that even though Kendo is considered Gendai budo, it is very regimented, likewise you may find the study of a Koryu Kenjutsu ryu-ha equally regimented and this may be detrimental to either or both studies. I guess you'd have to test the water yourself and see what the situation is.

    Alright- will do. I guess what I'm looking for is an ARMA like compromise between preserving a historical tradition and still keeping it "practical" in a sense. I realize that regimented kata training was and is of course the primary training method of most koryu, but sparring was at one time a feature of prominent kenjutsu styles as saftey and training gear improved over time. Interestingly enough the koryu styles that I have seen that still keep sparring in their systems have mostly been naginata based koryu, but for the most part kenjutsu is not about that. So with the opposite extremes at my disposal (kendo shinai based sparring and kata based kenjutsu sword handling) I want to work within the system to see what I can come up with without offending the sensabilities of either camp. Maybe I'll end up with nothing but a mess, but we'll see.

    The few Kenjutsu ryu I have seen are far more in tune with Iai than Kendo. Iai may focus on drawing of the sword, but cuts/paired kata still exists
    I'd certainly agree for the most part. However Ona-ha itto ryu does have a fairly strong influence on kendo from what I have seen.

    YouTube- Ono Ha Itto ryu Kenjutsu

    Seitei Iaido (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei Iaido) is the main "compliment" to Kendo. It was devised for that exact purpose (IE most head Kendo sensei seeing their Kendo students were lacking proper swordwork outside of a shinai)
    I'll definately check this out. I don't think this iaido school is in my area but I'd be intrested in seeing it if it is.

    Neither Kenjutsu nor Iaijutsu -imo- really "compliment" Kendo any more than traditional Jujutsu compliments Judo or BJJ...Like a Tiger and Lion, part of the cat family but different animals.
    I'd slightly disagree with you on the jujutsu and judo/bjj...they all use the same 'tools' (the human body). Two however train techniques mostly (or completely) in an alive enviroment and one restricts them to kata (or in the other jujutsu offshoot, aikido, compliant drills). The way to bridge them is a matter of getting used to how to apply the waza outside of kata drills . I've worked a little bit on this with wristlocks for example...although most of the high success waza has already been adpoted by judo.

    However with kendo and kenjutsu from what little I have seen, read, and experienced, the tools are different and the waza in kendo has evloved around that on top of a difference in the training enviroment. Thus while an arm bar might have the same mechanics in both a koryu and a gendai budo, in kendo the mechanics of cutting with the shinai have largely diverged from how it works with a katana. My fondness for koryu coupled with my fondness for practical martial application means that I want to see if I can bridge these two as well.
  9. Big_Boss is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2010 6:29am


     Style: Transitioning as usual

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    I feel I either wrote it poorly or you read too deeply, was not making any "aliveness" debates or anything, just stating a small comparison of principle regarding modern incarnations and Koryu.

    What exactly is similar with Kendo to Itto-Ryu? Not questioning you, just that from what I've seen its pretty standard paired Kata found in various Koryu. If you're referencing the Kendo kata, yes this is what most kenjutsu paired kata resemble. If you see something deeper that I'm just not picking up on I'm very interested in what you noted.

    Again, was just noting your emphasis on "dueling" kata aiding your Kendo, which I feel just isn't going to help much vs going to more Kendo.
    If you are interested in Koryu, by all means find one that suits your interests in the JSAs.
  10. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2010 11:48am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Boss View Post
    t exactly is similar with Kendo to Itto-Ryu? Not questioning you, just that from what I've seen its pretty standard paired Kata found in various Koryu. If you're referencing the Kendo kata, yes this is what most kenjutsu paired kata resemble. If you see something deeper that I'm just not picking up on I'm very interested in what you noted.
    Mostly the kote and do stikes- indeed the glove guard for practicing kote strikes is a feature of ona-ha, and the timing reminds me of some (but certainly not all) kendo drills. It is NOT the same- but you can see how kendo evolved from it. If paried kendo kata resemble ona-ha itto ryu that makes sense as it was one of the primary styles influencing kendo ( Yagyu Shinkage Ryu being another major one). Here are some kote strike highlights and kendo drills and strikes for a comparison

    YouTube- 100 kote [1/4]
    YouTube- Kirikaeshi
    YouTube- Kendo Men Nuki Do
    YouTube- Chiba Sensei's 'Kendo Perfect Master' - Men, Kote, Do, Tsuki basics and Kirikaeshi.

    Going back to the Itto ryu kata+
    YouTube- Ono Ha Itto ryu Kenjutsu

    I guess you will have to make up your own mind :eusa_ange


    While overlaps are to be expected with Ona-ha and other kenjutsu style's paired kata (most certainly kote strikes are found elsewhere), itto ryu is still distinct when compared to other ryu.

    Here a different itto ryu clip paired with some other kenjutsu styles:

    Ona-ha
    YouTube- Ono Ha Itto Ryu 1970's

    Kurama ryu
    YouTube- Kurama ryu

    Yagyu shingan ryu
    YouTube- Yagyu Shingan ryu ken

    Katori shinto ryu
    YouTube- Itsukushima 1 - Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu

    Another katori with paired kata at the end
    YouTube- Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu

    They are all identifiable as kenjutsu (they all use the same weapon and many share ancestry), but all slightly different to varying degrees. Of these, ona-ha ryu is probably one of the most similar to kendo in my opinion.

    Again, was just noting your emphasis on "dueling" kata aiding your Kendo, which I feel just isn't going to help much vs going to more Kendo.
    No, I dont think it will either to be honest. The tactics of kendo have evoloved around the sport it is today. I want to be good at that sport, but also to see if it is possible to find any marriage between koryu and kendo's Ji-geiko. It's more about personal gratification than wanting to prove much.

    And since I've already posted enough videos to make up Avatar's full leangth running time, here is some old kendo with some nice sweeps included:

    YouTube- Kendo - You asked for it!
    Last edited by nightowl; 4/02/2010 11:53am at .
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