The Full spirituality of martial arts

**sumner072** · Posted On: 4/07/2010 11:31am

I know I'm clocking in to this conversation about oh..... 6 years too late but I just found this website today. To Mobius and Vesper, I think the problem that the McDojo-callers are running into is that they generally just want to duke it out and whoever is left standing is better in their opinion. It doesn't sound like they embrace the full spirituality of martial arts, so they won't be able to understand. All of us from SAK can admit that the teaching is not Hardcore, but we also tell people from the get-go, we aren't here to make you Bruce Lee, but capable of defending yourself. Defending yourself isn't about beating the snot out of the other guy in a ring, but finding yourself in a situation you didn't plan on encountering and protecting yourself and others from harm. To all the other guys and gals out there flaming Bakido because it makes you sleep at night thinking you're superior, have you been to our place? Do you even understand what we do there? How could you? You haven't shown up, you don't embrace the ideals we embrace, and you act like bigots. So a big thank you to William and Tyler for being persistent in reminding others that just because you aren't the same doesn't mean you're less than.

**Hedgehogey** · Posted On: 4/07/2010 4:12pm

Q: You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach?

A: No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are. Its the heroes journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. You have to have the balls to stand on your own, and face your demons. We do that through the environment created by resisting opponents. The more functional, the more contact, the more likely you are to confront your own ego. When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do. For real... not a demonstration... but for real. You must tap out, get hit in the face, get tackled and kicked. We all do. We all must. We all meet our own ego. Thats the beginning of the spiritual journey. You see... do you understand? The rest is hippie ********. They may use semantics that sound spiritual... but its all hypocrisy. You cant fool yourself... they become bitter. Better to be honest and just train
-Matt Thornton

In other words, you are not Aang, no matter how big and colorful your belt is.

**dougguod** · Posted On: 4/07/2010 11:15pm

Originally Posted by sumner072

you don't embrace the ideals we embrace, and you act like bigots.

Vesper and Morbius, who I presume are the William and Tyler you refer to, referred to critics as racists. You refer to them as bigots. Is this standard bakido rhetoric? Are students taught, in between movie and comic book references, that they are part of some kind of persecuted subculture? Is bakido the one true path to heaven? What ring of hell do those of us who didn't get fifth degree blackbelts before puberty get cast into?

**lefi** · Posted On: 4/09/2010 7:16pm

Originally Posted by sumner072

they generally just want to duke it out and whoever is left standing is better in their opinion.

No, no, no, no, no...

That is not what's being said at all, that's what you'd like to think is being said so you can feel victimized and bullied.

What is being said is that proper, contact sparring with a resisting opponent is a learning experience that everyone involved in martial arts should experience. That is what's being offered - a learning experience. Not an ass-whupping, not a beating. A gift.

You can talk about spirituality all you want, but the day you confront this is something to remember.

My first martial arts was jiu jitsu, and I still love the throws and the techniques. This should be relevant to you bakido guys, because I think we "sparred" in pretty much the same way you do. We would have corridors of people waiting to attack you one after the other. Hard. It felt good. Sometimes we'd have a circle. Sometimes two lines coming at you. One after the other, fast, random attacks, kicks, punches, knives, bottles, baseball bats, grabs, you name it. It was oh so realistic, and intense, and tiring. By the time I had earned two grade promotions I felt pretty sure I could defend myself. Not attack, of course, because we were also a "self defense" school. By the time I was a senior grade, I knew I could take on several people if it came down to it.

Then I took up kyokushin, with some decent sparring. They're still taking it very easy on me, as I'm a beginner. Do you know what I learned very quickly? That I don't keep my hands up. That I don't stand in a position to minimise attack possibility. That having someone my size throw a punch with intent at really hitting me, even at half strength, is a scary thing, a mental barrier, that I was never prepared for. That so many of the fancy moves go completely out of the window once you're aware of the possibility of getting hit in the face. And a dozen other such things.

I've had a girl half my size give me a fat lip. Do you know why? Because my hands are used to the compliant partner from jitsu who throws a punch so unrealistic not even a drunk would do it, then keeps it in air long enough for me to grab it so I can throw them at leisure. Because my compliant jitsu partner doesn't try and anticipate my move, and have a counter ready, or get away, or follow up the first punch with another move to catch me out. And that's why I leave my hands down - because I'm used to believing I don't need them up. And I bet you do mistakes like this too - because you have no idea what defending yourself really means.

You can't learn to defend yourself without being attacked.

Sparring properly isn't about wanting to be a cage fighter. It isn't about wanting to be Bruce Lee. It isn't about which martial arts is better, or being able to beat a kickboxer/BJJer/Chuck Norris.

It's about wanting to learn to use the techniques of your chosen martial art properly, the way they were really intended to be used. Once you're past the very low grades, every time you throw a weak, utterly unrealistic punch at your partner for them to "defend" against, you're doing them a disservice. And you're doing yourself, as a martial artist, a disservice by not pressure testing your art, and gaining valuable knowledge about your art, and about yourself.

I'm tired and this post got long and disjointed, but you get the idea. Also, just so we're clear, I'm not actually suggesting that the techniques from my jitsu training can't be used in a resistive, sparring fashion. Of course they can. People do all the time, and they call it judo.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 4/09/2010 7:21pm

Cull:
Is this a McDojo? - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

**P Marsh** · Posted On: 4/09/2010 7:42pm

Originally Posted by sumner072

I know I'm clocking in to this conversation about oh..... 6 years too late but I just found this website today. To Mobius and Vesper, I think the problem that the McDojo-callers are running into is that they generally just want to duke it out and whoever is left standing is better in their opinion. It doesn't sound like they embrace the full spirituality of martial arts, so they won't be able to understand. All of us from SAK can admit that the teaching is not Hardcore, but we also tell people from the get-go, we aren't here to make you Bruce Lee, but capable of defending yourself. Defending yourself isn't about beating the snot out of the other guy in a ring, but finding yourself in a situation you didn't plan on encountering and protecting yourself and others from harm. To all the other guys and gals out there flaming Bakido because it makes you sleep at night thinking you're superior, have you been to our place? Do you even understand what we do there? How could you? You haven't shown up, you don't embrace the ideals we embrace, and you act like bigots. So a big thank you to William and Tyler for being persistent in reminding others that just because you aren't the same doesn't mean you're less than.

Spiritualism is just a hollow shell for martial arts that is only still propagated
by the movie business and bad instructors.

Lets do some word play.

Martial Law: A kind of governance or legal enforcement that is dictated solely by a military body and not a policing force.

Martial Art: A system of close combat that is taught for fighting and is most often used in a military structure or society.

Martial mean military which means physical combat. ALL MARTIAL ARTS EXIST SOLELY FOR EITHER KILLING OR MAIMING AN OPPONENT. Even the sacred Shaolin Monks used their plethora of kung fu styles to rip out someones guts or paint the walls in blood.

The true spiritual centre of martial arts is learning to **** up someone else before they get to you first. Any "martial art" that completely avoids the notion of full physical confrontation in some form is nothing more than a snazzy dance that will serve no purpose other than a half decent cardiovascular workout.

**shelbydeth** · Posted On: 4/09/2010 7:47pm

That was wonderfully put lefi. + Repped.

**jkdbuck76** · Posted On: 4/10/2010 11:04am

Originally Posted by sumner072

Defending yourself isn't about beating the snot out of the other guy in a ring,....

Correct. But defending yourself is about beating the snot out of the "other guy" wherever you happen to be. And fighting in the ring and sparring against a fully resisting person is the best way to get you ready.... just like firing live ammunition in boot camp gets you ready to fire a rifle in combat.

Now, I have a question for you: who has more experience fighting full force, hitting and getting hit....those who do kata, or those who box?

Here is another question: who stands a better chance of driving a truck? Someone who can drive a car? Or someone who draws pictures of automobiles but never drives?

Hopefully, your answers were "those who box" and "someone who can drive a car."

If not, then please enjoy the assr4ping from the other posters here.

**spidersfrommars** · Posted On: 4/10/2010 12:00pm

Originally Posted by P Marsh

Martial mean military which means physical combat. ALL MARTIAL ARTS EXIST SOLELY FOR EITHER KILLING OR MAIMING AN OPPONENT. Even the sacred Shaolin Monks used their plethora of kung fu styles to rip out someones guts or paint the walls in blood.

I agree with your general point but saying that all of them are solely for killing/maiming is not quite right. For example judo and the other "do" martial arts (someone please correct me if Im wrong about this) such as aikido and kendo are meant primarily as a means towards self improvement. Learning to kick ass is the means by which one goes about that but it's not necessarily the end goal.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 4/10/2010 12:11pm

Originally Posted by spidersfrommars

I agree with your general point but saying that all of them are solely for killing/maiming is not quite right. For example judo and the other "do" martial arts (someone please correct me if Im wrong about this) such as aikido and kendo are meant primarily as a means towards self improvement. Learning to kick ass is the means by which one goes about that but it's not necessarily the end goal.

You are wrong.

If you don't think Judo can maim you when done in a SD situation you are misinformed.

Kendo? SD? Boy oh Boy oh Boy really? A sport based on Japanese sword techniques? Really? DO I need to explain the problem with your thinking on this one? Including the use of Kendo as SD. If we go that way I yeah no.

Aikido? Wrist locks and Bone breaking aren't maiming?

Dude really?

Martial Arts came first the over-indulgence of spirituality came later.