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  1. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 2:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: karate / bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeroo View Post
    OK so the reason we never see wristlocks in UFC could be because the wrist counts as a small joint?
    we never see wristlocks in sanctioned mma because:

    • it's illegal to grab the gloves
    • fighters' hands and wrists are taped and wrapped for support and safety
    • it's hard as **** to land a wristlock on sweaty guy who's interested in not tapping


    some bjj tournaments classify wrists as small joints.

    Some things I'll add. I saw another thread in the past about a wrist lock technique allowed in BJJ "Cowtoe" but this does not involve throwing the person from a wrist lock.
    mao de vaca. it's bjj; non-comedy wrist locks are applied from controlling positions. 90% of the wrist locks i've seen in bjj are finishes off omoplatas and such. "i've got you, you know i've got you, i don't feel like cranking this so i'm going to lock your wrist and we can get back to rolling."

    what separates bjj type wristlocks from aiki type standing wristlocks is control and sequencing. bjj is position before submission; jma will use the submission (such as it is) to gain position... which is where we run into issues.
  2. Iainkelt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 2:02pm


     Style: 10thP/BJJ/Wrestling/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeroo View Post
    I've always been curious about effectiveness of wrist locks for self defence, and saftey of them in sparring. A long time ago I used to do Bujinkan ninjutsu and I was told that the standing jointlocks we did were too dangerous to practice live. We were allowed to spar if we agreed on a safe rule set but it wasn't usually encouraged.

    OK so the reason we never see wristlocks in UFC could be because the wrist counts as a small joint?

    Some things I'll add. I saw another thread in the past about a wrist lock technique allowed in BJJ "Cowtoe" but this does not involve throwing the person from a wrist lock. Also when I did JJJ for a while the instructor said when I asked that small joint locks such as wrists and fingers were allowed in sparring but they had to be applied in a controlled manner.

    Okay, I know I tend to be very scatterbrained with these so I'll restate my questions that I want to know the answer to the most: In your opinions are standing wrist-locks effective for self defense? Are wrist-locks too dangerous to apply against a resisting partner?
    In short, standing wrist locks aren't completely worthless in self defense but they are a low percentage technique, especially against anyone who knows the first thing about fighting. Basically they are difficult to apply to fully resisting opponents (not impossible of course, but difficult) especially when you can't control the rest of their body. On the ground I find it easier to use wristlocks because I can isolate an arm, control the other person's posture, and use the technique as a way to set up something else even if I don't get the tap. I also believe that standing wristlocks can work well as a pain compliance or "come along" technique, especially if the other person doesn't really want a full out fight.

    To answer your next question, no I don't think wrist locks are "too dangerous" to apply to a resisting partner but like any joint lock you should know what you are doing before attempting it, and always apply it with control rather than brute force. Wristlocks can bite in quickly and hurt a lot, and in my opinion are completely legit as long as you aren't grabbing and twisting fingers along with it.
  3. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 2:05pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ummm...

    It depends.

    Or is that too wishy-washy? I just think "self-defense" conjures up the image of some 300lb Mohawk-coiffed street thug in spiked leather foaming at the mouth and screaming for blood and brandishing a meat cleaver as the threat (maybe that's just me?) and on someone like that, wristlock isn't going to be my first thought. (Running like the wind probably would be. Thank God for roadwork...)

    But there are other ego fights against much lesser threats in which a wristlock might be a perfectly viable choice. I mean, my gramma use to get fierce drunk, and I just wasn't willing to punch her out or RNC her (she would thrash like a cockroach sprayed with insecticide). But locking her wrist, leading her back to the lazyboy recliner and strapping her in was far more humane.

    Okay, I exaggerate. But my point is, tools exist for different situations.
  4. Stu-Jitsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 2:11pm


     Style: Boxing, Rowing Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    The stuff on the Livestrong site is a piss poor account of Judo and BJJ or as they call it Brazilian Judo.
    I...thought "brazilian judo" was just a semi-joke that folks put in their style fields, as in, "i do bjj which is like brazilian judo lololol".

    Has it turned out to be a complete joke, rather than a semi one?

    Stu xD
  5. feral00 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 2:35pm


     Style: Hapkido/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As somebody with wrist lock experience I am going to give some advice. don't use them is self defense, sure you might get one but you are guarenteed to get the modified inside leg kick to the groin.

    Seriously I have been doing hapkido for twelve years and I know I still would not land one in 99.99% of fights (maybe a slight exageration but you get my point).
  6. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 4:18pm


     Style: mma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Ummm...

    It depends.

    Or is that too wishy-washy? I just think "self-defense" conjures up the image of some 300lb Mohawk-coiffed street thug in spiked leather foaming at the mouth and screaming for blood and brandishing a meat cleaver as the threat (maybe that's just me?) and on someone like that, wristlock isn't going to be my first thought. (Running like the wind probably would be. Thank God for roadwork...)

    [...]

    But my point is, tools exist for different situations.
    Well what I mean by self defense is that in a fight noone's going to just let you grab their wrist, or hand really. I used to do the ninja thing, or did I mention that already? Anyway, we were generally taught teh deadly wristlock from a position where your attacker has grabbed your gi or shirt with one hand, so its like someone is trying to intimidate you or they're winding up to punch you. We were told an open hand slap to the ear first while your other hand traps theirs would lessen the resistance, then the pressure point between the thumb and index finger can be used to help remove their grip. From there I think you know the rest.

    Now back to the thread, and thanks everyone for clarification of my question. I don't think I'll ever think about using a standing wrist-lock again unless I don't think much of my attacker.
  7. thatrugbyguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 4:41pm


     Style: Krotty/Crapple/Goonery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli View Post
    we never see wristlocks in sanctioned mma because:

    • it's illegal to grab the gloves
    • fighters' hands and wrists are taped and wrapped for support and safety
    • it's hard as **** to land a wristlock on sweaty guy who's interested in not tapping
    To be fair, it does happen once in while. Off the top of my head I can remember Royce finishing Akebono with, like you said, a wrist lock off of an omoplata.
  8. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 4:41pm


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Or, perhaps, you're looking at "standing" wrist locks all wrong. For one, as has been said, you can do them standing, or on the ground. Or sitting. Or what-have-you. Secondly, they don't have to be the end of the move. As in, "HA! I got your wrist, now you are immobile forever!!!"

    Use them instead as a set-up. Once someone grabs you (really, it's hard to do a wrist-lock from a punch. That really is a low-percentage thing), or is attempting to grab you, go for the wrist or joint lock. Use it as an entry into a throw, or a sequence of manipulations to improve your position. You know someone will try and counter it. That's the idea. As soon as you do it, you know a counter is coming. There's your opening.

    Just a thought from a guy with a lot of time doing wrist (and other joint) locks.

  9. CrackFox is offline
    CrackFox's Avatar

    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 4:48pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did somebody wrist locking you cause you to use that stupid font?
  10. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2010 7:52pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Muerteds View Post
    Or, perhaps, you're looking at "standing" wrist locks all wrong. For one, as has been said, you can do them standing, or on the ground. Or sitting. Or what-have-you. Secondly, they don't have to be the end of the move. As in, "HA! I got your wrist, now you are immobile forever!!!"

    Use them instead as a set-up. Once someone grabs you (really, it's hard to do a wrist-lock from a punch. That really is a low-percentage thing), or is attempting to grab you, go for the wrist or joint lock. Use it as an entry into a throw, or a sequence of manipulations to improve your position. You know someone will try and counter it. That's the idea. As soon as you do it, you know a counter is coming. There's your opening.

    Just a thought from a guy with a lot of time doing wrist (and other joint) locks.
    You make some good points. I might also add that learning wrist locks can teach a beginner many things about how the body works, and it's a building block for weapon disarm techniques -- not that I really want to start that argument right now...

    But the basic question was "are wrist locks useful for self defense?" I wouldn't count on it as a bread and butter technique for self defense, but stuff comes up in different situations. I once had a guy fall into an outside wrist lock while sparring at DerAuslander's. I couldn't tell you how we got there, but it happened.
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