Shuai Chiao throw classification

[Blue Negation]

In Dr. Weng's Fundamentals of Shuai Chiao, which I obtained for a shuai chiao course I'm taking, it seems that several throws which I would call harai goshi are differentiated through some metric I am unfamiliar with. Given that, I was hoping that someone could explain to me the SC way of looking at throws and throwing.

WARNING: Blocks of text ahead!

Here are a few relevant examples from the text - if this is a no-no, mods, feel free to tell me to edit it out.

"Pulling": "X should quickly catch O's arm at the elbow joint covering it from the tox (X's palm will be down) and pulling O toward him[...] Throwing - First, while continuing to pull O's left forearm into your chest, step back with your left foot, turn your waist 90 degrees to the left to form a Lying Stance. Simultaneously raise your left arm to hook under O's right upper arm and hold it very tightly[...] shift all your weight to your left leg and turn your waist to the left side to make as big an angle as possible. Sweep your right leg backward and upwards, allowing O's center of gravity to rest on your right rear buttock as his knee cap is lifted by your leg so that O's body goes high off the ground."

-- Combined with the illustration provided, this seems to be a harai goshi-like throw using something like an ippon seoi nage grip. I'm not sure what the name comes from; perhaps it is the balance breaking and the fact that without a firm pull this throw won't work?

"Lower Body Control Leg Blocking Throw":

"[ready position and approaching same as "Pulling"] Throwing - similar to [Pulling] except that when you lift O's center of gravity by raising your right arm which surrounds O's waist, and pulling forward your left arm which grabs O's right arm at the elbow and turn to throw O over your shoulder, this time keep on raising O's center of gravity by using his right arm and lifting his waist while your left arm pulls him toward your left upward direction. At the same time shift all your weight to your left leg and sweep up with your right leg. Turn your whole torso to the left while throwing, including your head; the toe of left foot should open to the left as well. O will be thrown over your back and land in front of your left foot."

"Upper Body Control Leg Blocking Throw":

[ready position and approaching are same as Lower Body Control Leg Blocking throw]..."Throwing -- similar to [LBCLB] except that instead of us9ing yoru right arm to surround O's waist to control and throw him, in this throw your right arm will surround O's neck and squeeze so that O can not escape as you leg block and throw him.

+illustrations that seem to show, to me, a headlock harai goshi.


Given all this, am I mistaken in thinking that these are mechanically similar to Judo's Harai goshi? If I am not, it would seem that Shuai Chiao classification is through a different lens than Judo's. Is there a system, or is it more like western wrestling?

The reason I ask is that when I began to understand Judo's system of classification, I understood what the "feel" of the throw was supposed to be and I started being able to perform throws that were hopeless for me before. I'm hoping that a different perspective would give me another flash of insight.

[Matt Phillips]

This sounds like a job for Ming Loyalist

[Blue Negation]

This sounds like a job for Ming Loyalist

I was, indeed, hoping he'd have a contribution to make.

Also, apologies to the readers for my typos in the transcription. Funny because I corrected some of Dr. Weng's grammatical mistakes but introduced my own spelling ones.

[Ming Loyalist]

Given all this, am I mistaken in thinking that these are mechanically similar to Judo's Harai goshi? If I am not, it would seem that Shuai Chiao classification is through a different lens than Judo's. Is there a system, or is it more like western wrestling?

The reason I ask is that when I began to understand Judo's system of classification, I understood what the "feel" of the throw was supposed to be and I started being able to perform throws that were hopeless for me before. I'm hoping that a different perspective would give me another flash of insight.

well the first thing i want to point out is that i am no expert on shuai jiao. i am just a hung ga guy who was lucky enough to get to train with some good shuai jiao instructors who were sharing our kwoon for a few years.

as far as i know, there is not a unified set of shuai jiao throws and terminology. various teachers will name and group their throws as they see fit. the guys i was training with definitely had names for their throws, and we did try to use them as much as possible. but as my goal was to coach sanda players, we tended to keep it simple. most of the time we would refer to a style of throw, let's say a hip throw, and then show a bunch of variations of that throw.

at that time, i thought that judo had taken the naming of throws a bit too far, and that all the different names were not needed. however, now that i have been in judo for a while, i am really starting to understand why judo names throws the way it does, and i really appreciate the finer points of how each throw differs from the others.

so back to trying to answer your question:

in sanda we do a hip throw that is essentially o goshi. we didn't really differentiate between that throw when gripping around the waist from a similar throw with the arm wrapped around the neck, other than to say that it used a different grip, we also did an ippon seoi nage style throw that we also referred to as just another grip for the same hip throw. hell, we also had a throw using that same around the neck grip that was more like tai otoshi, only we saw them as variations of the same throw.

to be clear, the shuai jiao guys certainly had different names for these throws, we just didn't focus so much on that aspect as my goal was simply to be a better sanda coach.

so after all this, i have to say that i am not enough of an expert to be able to tell you how different the throw you are asking about is from harai goshi. i would think that most of the harai goshi mechanics and nuances would translate over to that throw, although you have to see what you can do with the different grips that are available.

[Jack Rusher]

Given all this, am I mistaken in thinking that these are mechanically similar to Judo's Harai goshi? [...] it would seem that Shuai Chiao classification is through a different lens than Judo's.

You're right twice over: the shuaijiao taxonomy cuts along different lines than the Judo one, and that throw is like a harai goshi (harai/O goshi variants are super popular in all CMA).

There is, as Ming mentioned, more fragmentation in the naming schemes used by SJ players than there is among judoka, but the one most modern coaches from the mainland use works out to ~300 throws. They tend to define them by the gross body movement of the thrower, for example "face turning" throws that involve rotating away from the opponent, rather than by which of the thrower's body parts is the main influencer (te waza vs ashi waza, &c).

That said, Weng's guys -- IIRC -- use a slightly different taxonomy that Ch'ang Tung-Sheng taught, which probably dates to before whatever unification has since happened within the sport on the mainland.

[Blue Negation]

Thanks, guys. I'm glad to see I'm not completely out there on this. The gross body movement taxonomy seems to make sense.

The most interesting portion of the class today was the hand deflections (working off a "zombie" lunge so far) into the o goshi and a new variant, which was called "head smashing". Like o goshi, with a palm on the back of the head instead of around the waist. I guess the idea is to hit them in the head and then spike them.

It's interesting enough that I'm considering training with the shuai chiao club. They're even on the off days from the judo club, so I could hit 4 days of Judo and 2 of SC per week until summer.

[lxy]

I agree with all the previous posters, theres no universal terminology or even an agreed way of organizing it. I will say that most Shuai Jiao guys i know don't "slap the hand" when they fall. Daniel Weng though started off in Judo IIRC so that might be different.

About those specific names: the names in Chinese are usually one character/one word. The english words are not translations, their descriptions. Saves you the trouble of learning the Chinese words which IMHO doesn't help you learn the technique.

Just don't mix up the Judo rules with the Shuai Jiao rules. Their games are a little different.

[loudmike]

Jack is correct, the names are derived simply from the gross body movements.

Pulling is named as such simply because you "pull" the forearm into your body before turning for the throw.

Lower Body Control Leg Block is because you control your opponent via the waist, or lower part of the body.

Upper Control Leg Block is the opposite, you control the head, or the upper part of the body.

Simple :)