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  1. #1
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar
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    Sport vs. War, according to the Greeks

    Found an interesting blog post, while doing some research for a different topic.

    http://www.yachigusaryu.com/blog/200...-sport-in.html

    At first glance, it just looks like yet another TMA practitioner defending dead drills and philosophy against the popular and growing sport of MMA. However, the plethora of quotes from the Greek Classics intrigued me. So I re-read the essay with a more critical eye, and I realized that I completely agree with the Greeks, even though I disagree with the author.

    The Greeks were making a completely valid point, in their denigration of sports as not preparing men for war. However, that is not the same as the point put forward by TMA'ers: that combat sports are ill-equipped to prepare a person to fight when compared to TMA's.

    The difference is fundamental. The Greeks weren't talking about making fighters. They were talking about making soldiers. I think we can all agree that combat sports are not the best preparation for soldiering, just as soldiering is not the best preparation for combat sports. Case in point, even before I started training boxing and BJJ, I used to beat my Marine Corps pal in friendly (and stupid) backyard sparring. However, even now that I've been training for a couple of years with UFC fighters, I'd never claim that I could be half the soldier that he was.

    The TMA'er is confusing soldiering and fighting, and thereby misrepresenting the intentions of the Greeks he has quoted.

    --Joe

  2. #2
    Woah. Alex Van Halen got huge. Join us... or die
    Gabetuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe View Post
    Found an interesting blog post, while doing some research for a different topic.

    http://www.yachigusaryu.com/blog/200...-sport-in.html

    At first glance, it just looks like yet another TMA practitioner defending dead drills and philosophy against the popular and growing sport of MMA. However, the plethora of quotes from the Greek Classics intrigued me. So I re-read the essay with a more critical eye, and I realized that I completely agree with the Greeks, even though I disagree with the author.

    The Greeks were making a completely valid point, in their denigration of sports as not preparing men for war. However, that is not the same as the point put forward by TMA'ers: that combat sports are ill-equipped to prepare a person to fight when compared to TMA's.

    The difference is fundamental. The Greeks weren't talking about making fighters. They were talking about making soldiers. I think we can all agree that combat sports are not the best preparation for soldiering, just as soldiering is not the best preparation for combat sports. Case in point, even before I started training boxing and BJJ, I used to beat my Marine Corps pal in friendly (and stupid) backyard sparring. However, even now that I've been training for a couple of years with UFC fighters, I'd never claim that I could be half the soldier that he was.

    The TMA'er is confusing soldiering and fighting, and thereby misrepresenting the intentions of the Greeks he has quoted.

    --Joe
    ^^^^^^^^^^^THIS.^^^^^^^^^^^

    Ancient warfare does not equal a fight, either then nor now. I can't list all the reasons, because there are too many, but some of them are:


    • Modern society revolving around laws and technology which enforces said laws.


    • GUNS! :qright1:
    • Warfare is to the death, fights are most likely not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcastro
    He screams like a little girl as the pain ripples through his arm, shoots up into his brain, and now your dick is hard.



  3. #3

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    Ever heard of MCMAP?

  4. #4
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabetuno View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^THIS.^^^^^^^^^^^

    Ancient warfare does not equal a fight, either then nor now. I can't list all the reasons, because there are too many, but some of them are:


    • Modern society revolving around laws and technology which enforces said laws.


    • GUNS! :qright1:
    • Warfare is to the death, fights are most likely not.

    Going even further, there are a ton of non-combat aspects of soldiering which are not even touched upon by combat sports. THAT's what the Greeks were referring to. Hierarchies of authority, duty to one's unit, discipline, readiness, and everything that goes along with being a soldier.

    A person can be a great soldier without being a fighter, and vice versa. But you can't be a great fighter without being a fighter.

    --Joe

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    Not to mention TMAs usually spout the self-defense idea, while soldiering seems a bit more aggressive and offensive.

  6. #6

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    The phalanx.

    The bravest were those who did not break from the ranks to fight one-on-one. If a hoplite left his place, he directly endangered the man to his left by depriving him of his own shield. Unit cohesion was paramount.

    Individual training did help the individual hoplite, but not the phalanx.

    Even with the deterioration of the unwritten hoplite warfare code that came with the Athenians' radical democracy, which shifted power away from the oligarchical base of small farmers towards the unlanded trireme rowers in the city, and continued through the Peloponnesian War (Plato's time), the phalanx was still the core of a Greek army.

    Sports training is 1v1. That is almost worthless to the phalanx.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by capt. moroni View Post
    The phalanx.

    The bravest were those who did not break from the ranks to fight one-on-one. If a hoplite left his place, he directly endangered the man to his left by depriving him of his own shield. Unit cohesion was paramount.

    Individual training did help the individual hoplite, but not the phalanx.

    Even with the deterioration of the unwritten hoplite warfare code that came with the Athenians' radical democracy, which shifted power away from the oligarchical base of small farmers towards the unlanded trireme rowers in the city, and continued through the Peloponnesian War (Plato's time), the phalanx was still the core of a Greek army.

    Sports training is 1v1. That is almost worthless to the phalanx.
    wow you sure know a lot mister! I want to know more! how did the phalanx stopped being so dominant?

  8. #8
    solves problems with violence supporting member
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    wow you sure know a lot mister! I want to know more! how did the phalanx stopped being so dominant?
    you might want to read up a bit on the battle tactics of the roman army.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    you might want to read up a bit on the battle tactics of the roman army.
    I sure will! Now my legendary curiousity is wide awake meow! :angel8:

  10. #10
    Mr. Machette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    wow you sure know a lot mister! I want to know more! how did the phalanx stopped being so dominant?
    Flanking.

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