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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2010 9:58pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Broadsword League

    I'd like to draw your attention to the Broadsword League, and offer a cordial invitation to join.

    What is the Broadsword League? To quote from the website:

    The Broadsword League is a venue for historical fencing competition with the broadsword, backsword, heavy sabre and singlestick. Our goal is to give historical fencers the opportunity to test their skills against each other and earn a competitive ranking based on the results. It is hoped that this sort of friendly competition will spur the fencers of the Broadsword League to develop their own abilities to the highest level.

    The League collects statistics and issues competitive rankings based on the score results of Challenge Matches. Once a year, the League certifies the winner of two different "Championships", based on scores accumulated as well as regional "Championship" winners.

    The organization and layout is not dissimilar to "Chessclub with Swords."

    So if you practice Broadsword, Singlestick, or Military/Heavy Saber please consider this option for testing your skills in friendly competition with the goal of realistic and historic training.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2010 11:48pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    http://broadswordleague.ning.com/pho...v?context=user

    Oh boy, another league for people with rattan weapons. I'm actually impressed by their correct usage of the word broadsword though. Many use interchangeably with the word longsword, and they do not make this mistake. At least considering that their broadswords are actually just wooden sticks in leather cups anyway.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 12:44am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So if you practice Broadsword, Singlestick, or Military/Heavy Saber please consider this option for testing your skills in friendly competition with the goal of realistic and historic training.
    These guys are very well aware of the meanings of "broadsword", "singlestick" and "military/heavy sabre" and they fence with all of them.
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 12:44pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    http://broadswordleague.ning.com/pho...v?context=user

    Oh boy, another league for people with rattan weapons. I'm actually impressed by their correct usage of the word broadsword though. Many use interchangeably with the word longsword, and they do not make this mistake.
    Not particularly surprising given that the President is a well respected researcher and published author, focusing heavily in the Highland Broadsword/McBane &c. tradition and the Vice President is an Assistant Instructor at a traditional Salle de Armes in California.

    Their research and pedigree is solid.

    At least considering that their broadswords are actually just wooden sticks in leather cups anyway.
    Hate to break it to you, but the use of Wood and Rattan as "wasters" (specifically, "Singlesticks") in lieu of steel for fencing with broadswords is historically accurate and documented back to the 19th Century at a minimum. How many references to period manuals would you like? I can give you 4 immediately and that's without counting period artwork, and even official military and police photos/drawings of Singlestick training are easily available if your google-fu is strong (hint: Look for "Assault at Arms" and the like in ejmas).

    Historically, in this period both Wood and Rattan was used. The choice of wood is usually specified as Ash and Rattan is, to the best of my knowledge, always referred to as "Malacca" (which was also popular for Canes during that time).

    Further, it should also be noted that the Broadsword League has flexible assaulting/challenge rules which allow for the selection of either steel or singlestick.

    Finally, I find it curious that a guy who lists "ARMA" as one of his main styles is complaining about the use of wooden wasters in fencing. First because of the rather controversial position that ARMA has taken on many issues (i.e. have care throwing stones). Secondly, there is a rather widely circulated article, titled (ims) "Get Thee a Waster," in which John argues for the use of wooden wasters for fencing/training and does a decent job of documenting literary use back into the Medieval period.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Last edited by lklawson; 3/17/2010 12:47pm at .
  5. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 2:25pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Not particularly surprising given that the President is a well respected researcher and published author, focusing heavily in the Highland Broadsword/McBane &c. tradition and the Vice President is an Assistant Instructor at a traditional Salle de Armes in California.

    Their research and pedigree is solid.

    Hate to break it to you, but the use of Wood and Rattan as "wasters" (specifically, "Singlesticks") in lieu of steel for fencing with broadswords is historically accurate and documented back to the 19th Century at a minimum. How many references to period manuals would you like? I can give you 4 immediately and that's without counting period artwork, and even official military and police photos/drawings of Singlestick training are easily available if your google-fu is strong (hint: Look for "Assault at Arms" and the like in ejmas).

    Historically, in this period both Wood and Rattan was used. The choice of wood is usually specified as Ash and Rattan is, to the best of my knowledge, always referred to as "Malacca" (which was also popular for Canes during that time).

    Further, it should also be noted that the Broadsword League has flexible assaulting/challenge rules which allow for the selection of either steel or singlestick.

    Finally, I find it curious that a guy who lists "ARMA" as one of his main styles is complaining about the use of wooden wasters in fencing. First because of the rather controversial position that ARMA has taken on many issues (i.e. have care throwing stones). Secondly, there is a rather widely circulated article, titled (ims) "Get Thee a Waster," in which John argues for the use of wooden wasters for fencing/training and does a decent job of documenting literary use back into the Medieval period.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Kirk,

    I am not arguing that the usage of wooden swords in practice is inconsistent with past practices. There are many sources that detail the usage of wooden wasters in both pre-industrial and post-industrial times (for canes and that sort). What I am saying is that blunt (or semi sharp) steel trumps wood in sparring, if only because they are more safe and more true to their fully sharpened steel counter parts. I do not think a piece of wood in a leather cup fully emulates a broadsword any more than their LARPing counterparts. Why go through the time and effort of learning to use a sword if all you want to do is fight with sticks?
  6. Polar Bear is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 2:45pm


     Style: WMA - German Longsword

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Kirk,

    I am not arguing that the usage of wooden swords in practice is inconsistent with past practices. There are many sources that detail the usage of wooden wasters in both pre-industrial and post-industrial times (for canes and that sort). What I am saying is that blunt (or semi sharp) steel trumps wood in sparring, if only because they are more safe and more true to their fully sharpened steel counter parts. I do not think a piece of wood in a leather cup fully emulates a broadsword any more than their LARPing counterparts. Why go through the time and effort of learning to use a sword if all you want to do is fight with sticks?
    Ah lad after my own heart, I agree it should be called the singlestick league for accuracy.
  7. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 6:01pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Kirk,

    I am not arguing that the usage of wooden swords in practice is inconsistent with past practices. There are many sources that detail the usage of wooden wasters in both pre-industrial and post-industrial times (for canes and that sort). What I am saying is that blunt (or semi sharp) steel trumps wood in sparring, if only because they are more safe and more true to their fully sharpened steel counter parts. I do not think a piece of wood in a leather cup fully emulates a broadsword any more than their LARPing counterparts. Why go through the time and effort of learning to use a sword if all you want to do is fight with sticks?
    Because it is historically accurate for training and fencing, that's why.

    Are you deliberately ignoring this fact?

    We all get that you don't like it. But the fact is, the masters of old DID. It's not as if they didn't have steel blunts available. They did and were common. The old Maestros used both and, particularly for Broadsword and Heavy/Military Saber, recommended Singlesticks for "Assaulting."

    There's just no way to get around this fact.

    You imply that anyone who does this is "LARPing" and the further implication is thus they have no idea how to actually handle the "real thing" with no concept of edge control, draw-cutting, or anything else. But this is simply not true.

    If you feel like arguing wasters in Longsword is "LARPing" (or subtly implying in this case) go right ahead. I won't follow on that argument. But doing the same thing of Broadsword and Military/Heavy Saber is to deliberately ignore massive amounts of historic writings on the subject. I mean, sure you could try but when you acknowledge the historical accuracy of it in one breath (in example: Allanson-Winn's "Broadsword and Singlestick" or any of a dozen or so other sources) it's gonna be obvious you're on the wrong side of the assertion.

    It's historically accurate practice, exactly as the Broadsword League states in their mission statement:
    The Broadsword League is a venue for historical fencing competition with the broadsword, backsword, heavy sabre and singlestick.

    http://broadswordleague.ning.com/pho...v?context=user

    Oh boy, another league for people with rattan weapons.
    BTW, in this pic, besides Tom, an assistant instructor, also pictured is John Sullins... err Maestro John Sullins. Certified Fencing Maestro.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 6:41pm

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    Gents, I'm not affiliated with the Broadsword League but I've seen them fence at various WMA events. They fence with steel sabres (heavy/military, not modern sport sabres) as well as singlesticks, which are the historically accurate training weapon for "broadswords" (i.e., "heavy sabres") a la Allanson-Winn, Hutton et al.

    Not sure what the issue is here ...
  9. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 7:32pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Not sure what the issue is here ...
    Yup.

    And, reading back over my response, I come across as a belligerent wang.

    Sorry.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Last edited by lklawson; 3/17/2010 8:02pm at .
  10. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2010 8:47pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is there an issue here? I'm merely stating that fighting with anything not steel is just not accurate to actually using a steel weapon. Sure they can come close, but they just are not the same. I fully recognize the history of using wood and that's fine for people who like to continue in that tradition. It is my preference to use steel, period, and the way I see it there is no reason you can't fight with a steel broadsword.
    http://broadswordleague.ning.com/pho...v?context=user
    Like these fine gents of the same website. (though I do believe they are using military sabres here)
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