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  1. sbh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 6:59pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: nabard

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Matt:

    Iran: muslim theocracy, the term is a political one
    Persia: not muslim, refers to native people who inhabited the land that would eventually be usurped in the Islamic Revolution. Persia was the official name of the country until the 20th century.

    Non-muslim persons from this region typically do not want to be associated with Iran and differentiate/distance themselves from it by using a name more ethnically appropriate. there's lots of this on the web.

    All right, all. Well, either I did an insufficient job of defending the school or you are justified in your incredulity. The school is right for me, and for nearly 30 years it has been right for many people in this area, some with significant backgrounds in martial arts. I just thought I would chime in and share my first hand experience.

    I will say there is plenty of contact in the sparring these days.
    I will also say that I've experienced no training (1st or 2nd hand) in biting or fish-hooking. Safakhoo, in fact, has taken students to competition in the past. My claim was just that it is neither encouraged nor discouraged. And, sigh again, what makes it Persian is the ethnic heritage of the founder and the region in which it was founded. I don't know what else could make it more Persian. I submit we use the same criteria in discerning Nabard's ethnic identity that we use in discerning the ethnic identity of anything else be it cuisine, automobiles, etc.

    I know, from what I read, that I haven't convinced anyone that Nabard is a legit martial discipline, despite my efforts. Nevertheless, I encourage those for whom it is feasible to check it out for themselves and not take my word for it. You have nothing to lose by conducting first hand investigation.

    Nevertheless, I have enjoyed this back-and-forth. I'm new to Bullshido and I look forward to more conversations in the future.
  2. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 7:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What competitions did he take students to?
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  3. sbh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 7:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: nabard

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having not gone to any myself, I'm not sure; however, I'd be more than happy to ask and get back to you on this. But there have been discussions among the students regarding past competitions, so I know they've gone to some.

    update:

    I know one of them was in Mobile like 2 years ago. "The Battle of Mobile" or something like that.
    Last edited by sbh; 3/19/2010 7:27pm at .
  4. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 7:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sbh View Post
    Iran: muslim theocracy, the term is a political one
    Persia: not muslim, refers to native people who inhabited the land that would eventually be usurped in the Islamic Revolution. Persia was the official name of the country until the 20th century.
    I get all that... However, it's like my Grandfather being firm in referring to himself as Bohemian and not Czechoslovakian, despite the kingdom of Bohemia being dead and gone for hundreds of years. It's an affectation, and not representative of current reality, which makes it delusional...

    I will say there is plenty of contact in the sparring these days.
    I will also say that I've experienced no training (1st or 2nd hand) in biting or fish-hooking.
    So what is it, then, that makes your techniques inappropriate for competition?

    And, sigh again, what makes it Persian is the ethnic heritage of the founder and the region in which it was founded. I don't know what else could make it more Persian.
    The art is not "Persian" if the original material was "Chinese" and simply repackaged and renamed by a "Persian" in "Persia." As stated upthread, that makes my German sauerkraut American because I, an American, make it in America.

    What would make that art more "Persian?" I dunno... Having all of its techniques "discovered" or "developed" by "Persians" in "Persia" within the context of "Persian" culture, during a period of history when "Persia" actually existed and was recognized as "Persia" and not "Iran." Borrowing material from another location and presenting it as your own is usually known as "plagiarism" where I'm from, and it's typically frowned upon...

    I submit we use the same criteria in discerning Nabard's ethnic identity that we use in discerning the ethnic identity of anything else be it cuisine, automobiles, etc.
    Oooh, that sounds like fun! That makes every so-called African-American just plain ol' American, potentially (I hate hyphenated identities). Where was Scooby born and raised? That can identify his ethnic heritage, certainly. Where did he learn his Chinese martial art? Where does he teach it? Where did he develop said pseudo-"Persian" art, and what still makes it uniquely "Persian" and not just Chinese martial arts in a semi-"Persian" package?

    I know, from what I read, that I haven't convinced anyone that Nabard is a legit martial discipline, despite my efforts.
    And you won't. Time, testing, and its survival will convince people that it's legitimate. Nothing else.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 7:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sbh View Post
    Having not gone to any myself, I'm not sure; however, I'd be more than happy to ask and get back to you on this. But there have been discussions among the students regarding past competitions, so I know they've gone to some.

    Well, since you brought it up, yes please find out and get back to us. This is a really easy thing to prove some effectiveness.

    So correct me if I am wrong, but you guys learn animal forms, correct? You say that you have not done any eye gouging, or fish hooking, but do you do clawing to the face or groin strikes?

    Do you do full contact sparring? Full contact being gloves, head gear, and shin pads. Then going 90-100%.

    You train on concrete, so clearly there is no takedowns or ground fighting, correct? Is going to the ground not feasible in a fight?

    You guys have wooden dummies that you train on, correct?

    Not trying to grill you but I'm not interested in the Persian stuff personally, I'm interested in the combat. Answering some of these questions will clear some things up, I think.

    Thanks.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  6. sbh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 7:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: nabard

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    <<So correct me if I am wrong, but you guys learn animal forms, correct? You say that you have not done any eye gouging, or fish hooking, but do you do clawing to the face or groin strikes?>>

    Sorry if I misspoke. We do eye gouging, but no biting or fish hooking that I've experienced. Groin kicks may be shown in sparring, but they are not really kosher. However we all (guys) wear groin protection. No one wants to cut branches off another's family tree in sparring.



    <<Do you do full contact sparring? Full contact being gloves, head gear, and shin pads. Then going 90-100%.>>

    We do full contact wearing gloves and head gear. Most students do not wear shin pads. We then go 90-100% unless a senior student is working with a less experienced student. The point isn't to knock each others' heads off, but strike with enough force that your opponent gets the idea. Some spar harder than others. You get two senior students together and it is much different that a senior student sparring a junior student in terms of force, speed, etc.

    <<You train on concrete, so clearly there is no takedowns or ground fighting, correct? Is going to the ground not feasible in a fight?>>

    This is mostly right. I've had some partners use controlled take downs on me, but the concrete limits this and only those who are skilled in take downs are permitted to do it. In my experience, senior students will do it to a junior student to show that distance management is wrong or that the student has left himself vulnerable to a take down. In sparring there is no ground work, but the forms include techniques delivered from the ground.

    <<You guys have wooden dummies that you train on, correct?>>

    The dummies are metal with wrapped appendages and they rotate. I think there are pics of these on the site. They are called "UTDs."

    <<Not trying to grill you but I'm not interested in the Persian stuff personally, I'm interested in the combat. Answering some of these questions will clear some things up, I think.

    Thanks.>>

    Hey, no problem! Happy to give information.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 8:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    FWIW, this guy has been working on reviving antique forms of Persian swordsmanship, etc. for years: http://www.mmkhorasani.com/10.html . As I understand it, his process is similar to that of the HEMA movement; experimentation and pressure-testing based on the study of historical fencing treatises, etc.

    The Varzesh-e Pahlavani is way cool.

    * Edited to add, for those who don't bother to follow the link - the man I'm referring to is not the fellow whose style/school is the subject of this thread.
    Last edited by DdlR; 3/19/2010 8:23pm at .
  8. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 8:18pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sbh View Post

    We do full contact wearing gloves and head gear. Most students do not wear shin pads. We then go 90-100% unless a senior student is working with a less experienced student. The point isn't to knock each others' heads off, but strike with enough force that your opponent gets the idea. Some spar harder than others. You get two senior students together and it is much different that a senior student sparring a junior student in terms of force, speed, etc.
    Sounds OK. Any chance we can see a video of that sparring?

    Also, the quote function is your friend. Use it. Look at the button in the lower right corner of someones post.
  9. sbh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 8:27pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: nabard

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefron View Post
    Sounds OK. Any chance we can see a video of that sparring?

    Also, the quote function is your friend. Use it. Look at the button in the lower right corner of someones post.

    Hey Nefron,

    Here's a video of some sparring:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/THINKTOAS#p/u/2/vpL4Me0jjc8
  10. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2010 8:35pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, that was bad. Really... It was bad.

    I dare to ask, is that 90 to 100% sparring?
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