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  1. dig7six is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 9:17pm

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    Knife defense from the ground up ?

    Does anyone know of Intruction dealing with this area of grappling ? Obviously fighting someone with a knife is not very intelligent ( standing or grappling) , but i am curious as to if anyone out there is dealing with the "mid-fight pull" of a weapon from a grappling prospective and if so are they reputable?

    Personally my thoughts are if you see he has a weapon run or get something between you and the blade ie a shopping cart anything available until you can either escape or if your with your family heard them into the car or store etc.

    But for the situation where you are in mid fight, say during clinch range or more than likey on the ground, where someone who is getting dominated may become fearful and then become stupid.

    Not trying to graplle away the knife and break his arm ( unless that just happen to work out )...but more of a controlling of the attackers weapon arm and then transitions to escape.

    Thanx for any quality direction.
  2. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 9:46pm

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    I assume we are talking about situation where a knife is pulled mid fight AND you can not just disengage and run. What I teach is to control the knife arm by locking the elbow and securing it to the body. At that point, using a shoulder or elbow submission to damage/break the joint instead of fumbling with stripping the knife which can cause you losing control of the knife arm. Another option is to secure the knife arm up and out of the way of damage, like in a Head/Arm Triangle or D'arce Choke.
  3. dig7six is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 9:55pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    I assume we are talking about situation where a knife is pulled mid fight AND you can not just disengage and run. What I teach is to control the knife arm by locking the elbow and securing it to the body. At that point, using a shoulder or elbow submission to damage/break the joint instead of fumbling with stripping the knife which can cause you losing control of the knife arm. Another option is to secure the knife arm up and out of the way of damage, like in a Head/Arm Triangle or D'arce Choke.

    Yep, that is correct ( mid fight) and assuming you cant just disengage. I was figuring it would be something to do with control versus disarm (unless the disarm was a break that happened to be there ).

    Also do you or anyone know of any teachings that the Jujijitsu is altered or modified as in always monitoring the hands of the "attacker" ? A sort of Knife pull prevention grapppling.

    Never letting thier hands get out of sight, never placing your head in a turned away fashion, i guess alot of that falls into common sense, but was curious if anyone is developing it and actually researching it with aliveness.
  4. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 10:12pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by dig7six View Post
    Yep, that is correct ( mid fight) and assuming you cant just disengage. I was figuring it would be something to do with control versus disarm (unless the disarm was a break that happened to be there ).

    Also do you or anyone know of any teachings that the Jujijitsu is altered or modified as in always monitoring the hands of the "attacker" ? A sort of Knife pull prevention grapppling.

    Never letting thier hands get out of sight, never placing your head in a turned away fashion, i guess alot of that falls into common sense, but was curious if anyone is developing it and actually researching it with aliveness.
    It's funny cause the original Jujutsu was primarily designed to deal with the blade as everyone had a 3 foot razor on their hip. However, the surviving Ko-ryu Jujutsu schools don't really train in an alive manner. The alive training was used by Judo and into Sport Jiu-Jitsu which has lost the dealing with weapons. I just like how things get rediscovered.


    You should check out the STAB program.
  5. IMightBeWrong is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 10:23pm


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    Am I naive, or is it more rational to think that there's not much possibility of somebody pulling a knife mid fight as opposed to first thing? Chances are, if somebody is willing to pull a knife on you they are doing so to give you as big a disadvantage as possible. So wouldn't a mid-fight knife pull be a little silly? If somebody wants the advantage, they won't risk waiting til mid-fight to take it, right? Unless you're the attacker yourself, in which case they may not have had a chance to draw a blade to defend themselves with right away.

    I'm no knife expert or anything, but that's kind of what goes through my mind on the subject.
  6. dougguod is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 10:26pm


     

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    I've seen a number of authors/instructors deal with knife grappling, but all the stuff I've seen was fairly superficial.Of course, my own research into the topic was itself purely superficial. As far as names to look for, the only one I can cite with certainty is Southnarc and his site shivworks. You might also want to check out Hock Hochheim, James Keating, and Michael Janich. While I can't state with absolute certainty that these guys were among the sources I've perused, the sheer volume of material each has put out makes it a fairly safe presumption that they've covered the topic. How deeply, though, is something you'd have to check out for yourself.
  7. feral00 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 10:34pm


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    Whenever I think about knife defense I turn to FMA. The filipino martial arts in my opinion are the best when it comes to any applicable weapons training. There was an article on grappling with sticks I came across, I think on FMAdigest. I didnt read it, but I think I might just to see if anything can be applied to knives.
  8. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 10:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaohu View Post
    Am I naive, or is it more rational to think that there's not much possibility of somebody pulling a knife mid fight as opposed to first thing? Chances are, if somebody is willing to pull a knife on you they are doing so to give you as big a disadvantage as possible. So wouldn't a mid-fight knife pull be a little silly? If somebody wants the advantage, they won't risk waiting til mid-fight to take it, right? Unless you're the attacker yourself, in which case they may not have had a chance to draw a blade to defend themselves with right away.

    I'm no knife expert or anything, but that's kind of what goes through my mind on the subject.
    Actually there are multiple instances of people "losing" a bar fight, walking out to a car getting a weapon and coming back for a second round. Its not to far fetched someone thinking they are going to "kick ass" getting taken down and in the heat of moment draw a pocket knife. It may be ego because they are losing or emotions getting the better of them.

    Now one situation where they could of happened to me was when I was helping DerAuslander throw someone out of his bar one NYE. We grabbed him to throw him out, so we were already in clinch/grappling situation. While we looked for a pocket knife before we grabbed him, he could of still had one and deployed it while we were throwing him out of the bar.
  9. dig7six is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:05pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaohu View Post
    Am I naive, or is it more rational to think that there's not much possibility of somebody pulling a knife mid fight as opposed to first thing? Chances are, if somebody is willing to pull a knife on you they are doing so to give you as big a disadvantage as possible. So wouldn't a mid-fight knife pull be a little silly? If somebody wants the advantage, they won't risk waiting til mid-fight to take it, right? Unless you're the attacker yourself, in which case they may not have had a chance to draw a blade to defend themselves with right away.

    I'm no knife expert or anything, but that's kind of what goes through my mind on the subject.
    Its actually not that far fetched man, just think of this, your in my guard and beating the hell out of me on your way to passing my guard to mount or even in if im mounted, my head is getting thrashed off the concrete and i have a boot knife, you think im working and escape and really im reaching for a knife that will be inserted on your left side and dragged deeply to your right , when you sit you from the pain i cut your throat, come down your stomache and carve my way out from under you.

    Crazy over kill for the common situation i agree, but everynight i hear of someone getting stabbed these days. I love grappling but the trouble i forsee is the lack of dealing with a knife pull in the heat of the moment.

    There are allot of people who dont know a graplling art, and when a grappler takes someone down and begins to force his will, the guy on the loosing end can get desperate, desperate enough to where while he wouldnt have normally pulled a knife at the start of a fight..now he does cause he is terrified you will choke him either out or to death and do what with him, or you wont honor his tab in the street.

    I think just as important as training with aliveness is mandatory for developing real skill, this if you plan on using your art in the case of self defence HAS to be examined..cause id say it s pretty likey. if someone is crazy enough to start a fight with you out of random, i cant trust that he isnt armed, and assuming he is armed that he hasnt at least considered he would stab someone, and then trust him that it wont be me in the heat of that moment, no more than he can trust im a nice guy who wont break his arm if i get the arm bar.

    You guys know better than anyone the **** people say who cant grapple,..ill rip his groin off, or gouge out his eye or bite him etc, there are allot more people like that than there are who knwo Bjj etc and can escape without foul tactics.
  10. dig7six is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:06pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    It's funny cause the original Jujutsu was primarily designed to deal with the blade as everyone had a 3 foot razor on their hip. However, the surviving Ko-ryu Jujutsu schools don't really train in an alive manner. The alive training was used by Judo and into Sport Jiu-Jitsu which has lost the dealing with weapons. I just like how things get rediscovered.


    You should check out the STAB program.
    Ill check that out man, ive heard about it, but notjing in detail.
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