Broadsword League

**lklawson** · Posted On: 3/17/2010 8:41pm

Originally Posted by Mordschlag

(though I do believe they are using military sabres here)

A Military Saber is a Broadsword.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Mordschlag** · Posted On: 3/17/2010 9:03pm

Oh? I would consider them to be different, if only due to semantics alone. Are all broadswords sabres and all sabres broadswords?

**lklawson** · Posted On: 3/17/2010 9:34pm

Originally Posted by Mordschlag

Oh? I would consider them to be different, if only due to semantics alone.

Historically, the term was applied to Military-use, single-handed, basket-hilted, generically-"broad"-bladed swords. Either double or single edged, sometimes curved sabers, sometimes straight bladed such as some mortuarys, Schiavona, and Scottish "Claymores" (claidheamh mò).

Are all broadswords sabres and all sabres broadswords?

No. But most military sabers are Broadswords. Most dueling sabers are not. But these are very generic and slightly amorphous terms, historically.

The Pattern 1860 and 1830 are typically considered a Broadsword (but some disagree) though the blade is probably about as narrow as you can get and still be a Broadsword.

The 1796 pattern and similar are most definitely in the Broadsword class.

The straight-bladed, single-handed, basket-hilted Scottish "Claymore" was a Broadsword (and sometimes it was a "Backsword").

You can see examples of what period authors consider Broadsword-ish sabers by looking at the Anapolis' "Principles of Squad Instruction for the Broadsword" (saber looking cutlass), "Archery, Fencing, and Broadsword," le Marchant's manual, Hope's "New Method...", Pepper's "...Abridgment of the New Broadsword Exercise," and many others (two of these can be found at my lulu "store" for free download - the rest elsewhere for free).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**MGM** · Posted On: 3/17/2010 11:41pm

Originally Posted by Mordschlag

http://broadswordleague.ning.com/pho...v?context=user

Oh boy, another league for people with rattan weapons. I'm actually impressed by their correct usage of the word broadsword though. Many use interchangeably with the word longsword, and they do not make this mistake. At least considering that their broadswords are actually just wooden sticks in leather cups anyway.

Just out of curiosity, what are the leagues that compete with only steel?

**Polar Bear** · Posted On: 3/18/2010 3:10am

Originally Posted by lklawson

BTW, in this pic, besides Tom, an assistant instructor, also pictured is John Sullins... err Maestro John Sullins. Certified Fencing Maestro.

Yeah and to his eternal shame he applies such a title for historical fencing. I don't believe you can claim mastery of a fencing style until you have used it as intended. Therefore I believe the title of Maestro in Historical Fencing is effectively defunct.

While I am just starting out on my backsword research and am using singlesticks at the initial practice weapon it is with the intention of moving to all steel training once the initial period is over and once everyone orders suitable weapons.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 3/18/2010 6:28am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Yeah and to his eternal shame he applies such a title for historical fencing.

First: No he doesn't. He is certified by the San José State University Fencing Master's Program.

Second: There are many who hold that Military Saber is not a "dead" tradition; that it never died out. There are at least 3 Maestros that I know of who claim lineage. And, further, this is believable because Military Saber was taught up until WWI. It only stopped being an active Military instruction somewhere in the 20's or 30's (depending on where). Heck, there are official military instructional manuals on saber (and cutlass) from the early 20th Century. That's less than 100 years, or, to put it in perspective, about one to one and a half lifetimes. It's not unreasonable to believe that the tradition could survive in traditional salles for that long.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Polar Bear** · Posted On: 3/18/2010 8:04am

Originally Posted by lklawson

First: No he doesn't. He is certified by the San José State University Fencing Master's Program.

Well I suggest you don't use his title in a historical fencing context to back up your arguements on authenticity. His sports coaching creditials have no bearing on the topic we were discussing.

Originally Posted by lklawson

Second: There are many who hold that Military Saber is not a "dead" tradition; that it never died out. There are at least 3 Maestros that I know of who claim lineage. And, further, this is believable because Military Saber was taught up until WWI. It only stopped being an active Military instruction somewhere in the 20's or 30's (depending on where). Heck, there are official military instructional manuals on saber (and cutlass) from the early 20th Century. That's less than 100 years, or, to put it in perspective, about one to one and a half lifetimes. It's not unreasonable to believe that the tradition could survive in traditional salles for that long.

Well if they can prove that they have a living tradition then fine. Doesn't suddenly make them the font of all knowledge. Being good has alot to do with it also.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 3/18/2010 9:09am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Well I suggest you don't use his title in a historical fencing context to back up your arguements on authenticity. His sports coaching creditials have no bearing on the topic we were discussing.

Sure they do. There is substantial similarity and credentials in one, similar, system, gives a person a lot more credibility to comment upon and develop another. For example, a person with credentials in C would have a lot more credibility to comment upon or work developing programs written in Perl. To bring it closer to home, a person with credentials in Judo or BJJ would have a lot more credibility in commenting upon some third system of grappling.

Well if they can prove that they have a living tradition then fine. Doesn't suddenly make them the font of all knowledge. Being good has alot to do with it also.

Maybe I misunderstood. Did you or did you not assert that there is no unbroken, living tradition in Military Saber? Please clarify.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Polar Bear** · Posted On: 3/18/2010 10:03am

Originally Posted by lklawson

Sure they do. There is substantial similarity and credentials in one, similar, system, gives a person a lot more credibility to comment upon and develop another. For example, a person with credentials in C would have a lot more credibility to comment upon or work developing programs written in Perl. To bring it closer to home, a person with credentials in Judo or BJJ would have a lot more credibility in commenting upon some third system of grappling.

No your analogy is wrong. It would like a olympic shooter thinking he has the knowledge to tell the S.A.S. how to train. Martial Training is not the same a sports training.

Originally Posted by lklawson

Maybe I misunderstood. Did you or did you not assert that there is no unbroken, living tradition in Military Saber? Please clarify.

No, I didn't

**DdlR** · Posted On: 3/18/2010 10:26am

PB, Maestro Sullins earned his title in military fencing (via Maestro William Gaugler's lineage in the traditional Italian style). It isn't modern sport fencing, it's the same syllabus that was used during the 19th century to train soldiers. See the interview at http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/200..._wolf_0803.htm .

His "reconstruction" work has been geared towards reviving other fencing styles, especially Alfred Hutton's military sabre, Great Stick style, etc. - there was no need to reconstruct the Italian military school, because he spent ten years earning his Maestro certification in that one.