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  1. CrimsonTiger is offline
    CrimsonTiger's Avatar

    RAAAAAAR! Fear the Tiger!

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,579

    Posted On:
    2/15/2004 9:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's the weakest guard I think I've ever seen...flat on his back?

    btw, Omega, I worked that rolling knee-bar that you showed me...I can't do it, too big for all my dojo mates, but one of my buddies is small enough to do it...he likes it and thanks you.

    Meanwhile, I managed to nail someone with that closed-guard lock...*GRIN*
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
      #11
  2. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 2:47am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most of my grappling experience is not from BJJ. I didn't get that interested in BJJ until here recently. I've messed around with it and practiced with a few BJJ guys but I am just now starting to train as a serious student. I'm not trying to come off as an expert. I would wager that most everyone who commented knows more about BJJ than I do. I'm just an observer. I think this move has a place in grappling though. It is a pretty standard leg lock. I've actually used this move to escape from the guard against actual real people who are not on the Internet. I know it can work sometimes. I've also tried it and failed against an assistant instructor. Also, I just didn't think it would work and I didn't want to risk looking stupid or aggressive on my first day in class so I let go. Heh.

    I don't think BJJ is super awesome and invincible but I think it is one of the best grappling systems. I also think grappling in general is essential. I've always considered myself more of a striker/kicker person but I've really tried to make an effort to educate myself in grappling since high school. I hope that I don't sound like I'm trying to act like something I am not. If it makes you guys feel better I'll remove BJJ from my list of styles until I have more experience in it.

    To me, the guard always seemed like it should be tight like Royce does it. tight like Rickson did it. You see guys constantly keeping it loose in NHB now. I've watched guys hang off their opponent like a monkey. I've seen them resting in the exact lazy-ass position the guy on the bottom is in this picture and I've seen them do it right. I've also seen people trying to hold guard on someone while he is squatting up on his feet pounding their face and I think this move could work right then. What I am saying is, I have seen pro fighters do the guard as weak as this guy is doing it. Obviously, it happens.

    I think it happens a lot more in NHB situations where striking is legal. When the guy in guard has his hands up defending from strikes and grabbing at your arms instead of "posting", he looks more like this guy than the guys in your class. He also doesn't have a deathgrip on you with his legs because he is dodging strikes. I've done free sparring, I've even sparred with BJJ people. It is much more difficult to grapple with them in class than it is to fight them. I guess that is because when you limit me to BJJ, I don't know that much. I've also beaten guys who were better wrestlers than I am in free sparring. Punching changes things as you NHB people should know. This technique is more for that situation than for class.

    You fight like you train though. I don't see a BJJ guy using anything like this even if he had a perfect opportunity. I know I am not the BJJ expert, go ahead and make fun of me like Wastrel. Hoo haa, big deal. I'm not the master. I don't care. I'd still be talking if you weren't here. I come here because I like martial arts, not because I like you. I think this move is okay. If you don't like it, don't use it. Whatever.

    I think most everyone is cool though. Anyway, I am taking BJJ off my style list until I have more experience in it. .. I'm taking "your mom" off too.
      #12
  3. Omega Supreme is offline

    Administrator

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    22,963

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 3:01am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tight closed guard=cool leg lock I showed Crimson Tiger.


    As for you Crimson Tiger......excellllllent!

    (evil eye brow raised with **** eating grin)
      #13
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 3:58am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    man, i kind of went off for no reason .. weird .. i need a nap
      #14
  5. mikus is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,283

    Posted On:
    2/17/2004 2:18pm


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by 9chambers
    To me, the guard always seemed like it should be tight like Royce does it. tight like Rickson did it. You see guys constantly keeping it loose in NHB now. I've watched guys hang off their opponent like a monkey. I've seen them resting in the exact lazy-ass position the guy on the bottom is in this picture and I've seen them do it right. I've also seen people trying to hold guard on someone while he is squatting up on his feet pounding their face and I think this move could work right then. What I am saying is, I have seen pro fighters do the guard as weak as this guy is doing it. Obviously, it happens.


    Most ridiculous paragraph EVA!!!
    You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
      #15
  6. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    2/18/2004 2:10am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    :P

    I was just saying that the guard is not always Alcatraz. Yea, the one in the picture is weak but it's just for demonstration purposes. Anyway, it's not my picture. I just like leg locks.
      #16
  7. mikus is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,283

    Posted On:
    2/18/2004 10:46am


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm saying that you're not understanding the open guard. I really know nothing of leg locks or their dynamics so I don't know whether or not that'd work. But the rest was ludicrous. If I use an open guard it's so I can get good hip movement and put pressure on someone and open up sweeps and submissions. I don't do it so that I can get passed and turned over at will. The reason pepole do open guard is because there is something to it.
    You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
      #17
  8. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 10:58am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, I get the open guard. I just think that when you throw punches into the mix there is another guard called the "trying to hold on for dear life while I am also trying to protect my balls and face" guard.

    The open guard was rarely used in the early UFCs or in old Gracie tapes. It was almost never used in NHB until groin strikes were made illegal. It is fine for class and good as a transition but anyone who camps in it the way people do these days is an idiot. I have watched enough NHB to know that it is very often used in situations that would make no sense if groin strikes were legal. Your groin and entire abdominal wall are right there for him to mess with when it is legal. This is why you always saw Royce hugging people and kicking their kidneys with his heel. You never saw him hanging off of them trying to work for position back then.

    I know that BJJ people don't agree. I know what the open guard, spider guard and all that is .. heck I was using this stuff before I even knew what it was back when I was a kid. It's common sense. It is also common sense not to stay in an open guard for more than a few seconds. You open it up, look for a sub or a good strike, close it, open it up again. It's guerrilla warfare. If you just lay back for 30 seconds with your dukes up you are going to get hurt. The low abdoman is not strong like the stomach. That is why it's not a legal target in NHB anymore.
      #18
  9. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 11:02am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, I get the open guard. I just think that when you throw punches into the mix there is another guard called the "trying to hold on for dear life while I am also trying to protect my balls and face" guard.

    The open guard was rarely used in the early UFCs or in old Gracie tapes. It was almost never used in NHB until groin strikes were made illegal. It is fine for class and good as a transition but anyone who camps in it the way people do these days is an idiot. I have watched enough NHB to know that it is very often used in situations that would make no sense if groin strikes were legal. Your groin and entire abdominal wall are right there for him to mess with when it is legal. This is why you always saw Royce hugging people and kicking their kidneys with his heel. You never saw him hanging off of them trying to work for position back then.

    I know that BJJ people don't agree. That's because most of their experience comes from straight grappling with no strikes. I know what the open guard, spider guard and all that is .. heck I was using this stuff before I even knew what it was back when I was a kid. It's just common sense to use your legs like that. It is also common sense not to stay in an open guard for more than a few seconds. You open it up, look for a sub or a good strike, close it, open it up again. It's guerrilla warfare. If you just lay back for 30 seconds with your dukes up you are going to get seriously hurt. The low abdomen is not strong like the stomach. That is why it's not a legal target in NHB anymore. I know what the open guard is - I see it used wrong in NHB events constantly. That is all I said. I am not saying the guys in the UFC don't know any better. They are just taking advantage of the rules. I just hope the people at home (like you) understand that too.
      #19
  10. mikus is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,283

    Posted On:
    2/19/2004 2:05pm


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're saying that the reason Royce used closed guard is because groin strikes were legal. You have ZERO proof of this. Correlation not causation. End of story.
    You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
      #20
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