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  1. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2010 11:19am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, MMA, CQB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Ironically, government Gun Control was originally instituted as a means of keeping blacks from owning firearms.

    Anyway, I want to see a 12 gauge "Judge Dredd" model. .410 is kind of crappy as a SD round; only good for walking around in rattlesnake country.
    For the short range it's designed for, I think .410 in the face would be pretty unpleasant. For home defense, I think my dad's got it loaded with a bird shot, then buck shot, then .45 colt for increasing levels of lethality.
    :Determined:
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  2. ignatzami is offline
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    l Travel To Get Choked!

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2010 12:35pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    For the short range it's designed for, I think .410 in the face would be pretty unpleasant. For home defense, I think my dad's got it loaded with a bird shot, then buck shot, then .45 colt for increasing levels of lethality.
    Click-Click-Boom?
    I do not aspire to be great, or even good, I hope to suck a little less then last class.
  3. AMF is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2010 1:29pm


     Style: Fitness-Fu and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So the review write up will be delayed until this week-end, I went to the range this morning and shot a box of 50 124 grain JSP through it.

    My initial impression is the damn grip is too small for my big meat hook of a hand and thus accuracy was affected due to that. (I have pictures of my less than stellar - okay it's horrendus - marksmansship)

    I am going today to buy and install a more beefier set of grips and am going to the range again either Thu or Fri, the full review will be up sometime this week-end.
  4. ronin497 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 7:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ex-Tomiki Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Someone posted earlier about wanting to see a ported Ruger SP101.

    I have a 3" model, and if I can find a competent smith in the area I wouldn't be averse to trying this. I need to get the trigger smoothed out a tad anyway.
  5. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 7:53am

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    For the short range it's designed for, I think .410 in the face would be pretty unpleasant. For home defense, I think my dad's got it loaded with a bird shot, then buck shot, then .45 colt for increasing levels of lethality.
    Lack of "stopping power" aside, it just seems kind of gimmicky. And that's not a good thing when you might face a jury of non-peers riled up by a zealot prosecutor who might be inclined to play that same Marky Mark clip while providing running commentary about you being a vigilante.
  6. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 11:54am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Lack of "stopping power" aside, it just seems kind of gimmicky.
    This is my position on the matter, though I include terminal ballistics in my reasoning for why it's a gimmick.

    Without reviving a religious war that even predates Emacs v. Vi et al, I think we can all agree that a projectile isn't likely to incapacitate an attacker unless said projectile damages vital anatomy. The amount of penetration into flesh necessary to effect that damage can vary immensely, but I think we can also agree that one's defensive load should allow for sufficient penetration in as many scenarios as possible (balanced against one's personal concerns regarding various kinds of collateral damage).

    I admit that I was initially drawn to the Taurus Judge, for the same reason that I was later intrigued by Armscor's "Strike Three" ammunition (the latter being three large shot pellets loaded into various pistol caliber cartridges). I think the gimmick of the Judge (and the "Strike Three" ammunition) relies on the common knowledge that shotguns, virtually without exception, provide terminal effects which are superior to handguns when used in close quarters combat. Moreover, the aforementioned gimmick relies on an enthused (and confused) individual's exaggeration of that simple principle to mean that the ammunition a shotgun fires is superior to handgun ammunition.

    In simple terms, the effectiveness of a shotgun load using any size of shot is determined by two attributes: pellet count and pellet velocity (this obviously ignores spread pattern and point of impact, which are beyond the scope of comparing ammunition). There is nothing magical about a 36 caliber, 73 grain lead ball which grants is it the ability to devastate attackers; it is when that ball is accompanied by seven others, traveling at ~1,325ft/second, that a 12 gauge load of 000 buckshot becomes a legendarily destructive force. Reducing either the number of pellets or their velocity reduces the effectiveness of the load. Armscor's "Strike Three" ammunition fails on both counts, since it's only thee pellets traveling at less than 1,000ft/second. Using .410 shotshell loads in the Taurus Judge avoids the compromise of firing lead shot from a pistol caliber cartridge, but it's appeal is still based on a distorted view of shotguns' effectiveness.

    One of Federal's .410 shotshell loads designed for the Taurus Judge is listed as firing four pellets of 000 buckshot at ~1200ft/second. This is certainly respectable performance from a pistol, compared to more standard shotgun loads, but I believe one should consider the differences in shooting stance and weapon weight before getting excited about this. The Mossberg Model 50359 "HS410" is fired while holding the weapon at the front and rear, with the butt pressed against the shoulder, and weighs 5.5 pounds; the Taurus Judge is fired while holding the weapon at the rear, without using the rest of one's body for support, and weighs 1.8 pounds. The 000 buckshot load is impressive, but quick and accurate follow-up shots would be damn near impossible for me. Why subject yourself to that kind of recoil when you could be firing a 45 caliber, 250gr Gold Dot Hollow Point (traveling at ~750ft/second) from the same weapon?

    Recoil could be lessened by using birdshot, but birdshot's lack of penetration has been proven time and again. As for firing a load of shot (either bird or buck) into a carjacker's face, well, I wouldn't want to be in your seat when the trial starts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
    cuz FastPass on Indiana Jones was like being a ghetto rock star.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    Merely insulting you is not an ad hominem fallacy: them calling you an idiot would be ad hominem if they said "You are an idiot, therefore your argument is invalid."

    What is instead happening is thus:
    1. Your argument is bullshit.
    2. You keep repeating, and expanding upon, your argument.
    3. Therefore, you are an idiot.

    That isn't an ad hominem fallacy; that's inductive reasoning.
  7. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 12:03pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah. Shoot to kill, or don't draw your weapon.
  8. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 12:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting, but may I ask a few questions...

    1. The atemi of Judo, which I use and have used very effectively; do you think it is more or less effective than a face full of bird shot?

    2. ASR's, to you think they are more or less effective than a face full of bird shot?

    3. In a pinch, a handful of pennies, gravel, or sand, thrown in the face of an attacker has been very effective; more or less so than a face full of bird shot?

    I can go on, but I think I made my point.

    I do not believe in "magic" be it in martial arts or firearms. The handgun from the outset was created for a very special purpose; no one in their right mind goes into battle with one and leaves his rifle at home.

    The purpose of the handgun is something that is easily carried and brought into play against an UNEXPECTED attack. Were the attack expected we would have taken much stronger measures. To this end, there are a few critical points often missed:

    1. Is this something I will carry with me, ALL THE TIME. The 1911 at home isn't much help. Availability

    2. Will it go "bang" with I pull the trigger, EVERY time I pull the trigger. Reliability

    3. Will I hit what I am shooting at when I pull the trigger? A hit with a .22 is MUCH better than a miss with a .44. Accurate

    Only when the first three are in place, do we get to the question of so called "stopping power." BTW the above is from Jeff Cooper, not me.

    We have a large body of evidence to see that most people will flee upon seeing a firearm; of those that do not, will when it goes bang. That is basic survival. To assert that a person with a face full of birdshot will say, like an actor in a bad action movie "ok, now I am REALLY going to kick your ass," is silly.

    To each their own. I think it has a lot going for it in the context it was created for. Some people will think anything less than a .44 magnum is too weak; many will remember what Goldfinger said about his .25 "I aim for the left eye and I never miss."

    As I said, to each their own.....
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  9. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 12:38pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On that "box of truth" site a LEO wrote in about someone in his department who forgot to take the birdshot shells out of his duty 12ga after using it for hunting over the weekend.
    He was shot and killed when the birdshot failed to stop the perps he was after.
    While certainly capable of causing a hideous wound, i would avoid birdshot for a defense load based on anecdotes like the above.
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2010 8:20pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    On that "box of truth" site a LEO wrote in about someone in his department who forgot to take the birdshot shells out of his duty 12ga after using it for hunting over the weekend.
    He was shot and killed when the bird shot failed to stop the perps he was after.
    While certainly capable of causing a hideous wound, i would avoid birdshot for a defense load based on anecdotes like the above.
    Yeah, at long ranges it would matter, but if I'm shooting someone from down the longest hall in my home being about 20'-25' with some #2 shot such as this:

    I don't have too small of hands, 16oz gloves fit me quite right, and admittedly I clumsily dropped around 10 of the shot while cutting the shell open with a steak knife...

    If this is coming out of a high velocity hunting shell, at a fleshy target such as the face and neck which is my target of choice, being that it's bigger and yet slower moving than the clay I shoot at frequently, we're talkin' ground chuck ladies & gentleladies...
    personally, I prefer steel BB to F, being from about 4.5mm to 5.5mm.
    It's still considered a hunting load, you can get it in high-velocity (around 1500fps MV) for much less than the super-tactical "buckshot" everyone's scrambling for, & it will work just fine at a home defense range, even better with a back bored & ported barrel or full choke...

    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 3/10/2010 8:29pm at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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