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  1. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 6:21pm


     Style: HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    It looks like I've missed most of the fun here. I've got to give up my job and family so I can train and be online all the time.

    And did Polar Bear really give up that easy? I'm surprised. He seemed so passionate...
    Ooh, I wish you could make money out of this... Practicing, studying and discussing HEMA takes up pretty much all my spare time right now, apart from work and family. Maybe in another ten years...

    And I don't think the Bear gave up as much as he got bored with this. There is nothing wrong with his passion for this. That I am quite sure of. His passion for talking about it, however, might not be quite as strong. :)
  2. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 6:53pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    Well that is one prime example of the key differences between Hema and SCA and martial arts and martial sports. Chivalry is simply non-existent in the fechtbuchen during the Middle Ages and the early Renaissance. Instead there are specific techniques for attacking weak spots like arm pits, the throat, the genitals, the eyes, breaking joints etc.
    Hmmmm...would anyone say there is a differencebetween matial arts and self-defense? Is that discussion somewhere else on Bullshido?
  3. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 7:11pm


     Style: HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep, I would say there is a difference and that is why we have two words for it... :)

    Martial Arts doesn't have to be used for self defense. Also self defense doesn't necessarily have to have "killing" or "maiming" intent, as I do believe Martial Arts originally had. Of course, modern inflation in the term Martial Arts has given it a much broader meaning, but I think there is a trend for turning it back to its origin again.
  4. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 7:48pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    Yep, I would say there is a difference and that is why we have two words for it... :)

    Martial Arts doesn't have to be used for self defense. Also self defense doesn't necessarily have to have "killing" or "maiming" intent, as I do believe Martial Arts originally had. Of course, modern inflation in the term Martial Arts has given it a much broader meaning, but I think there is a trend for turning it back to its origin again.
    I'm not interested in beating a dead horse if no one's interested, but...

    What I was saying before is that I view "martial arts" as a very inclusive term. It doesn't, by itself, make a judgment about the various systems or their practicality. I don't see "martial arts" as a series of dichotomies between battlefield and sport, or sport and self defense, or ritual and battlefield. Many martial arts stretch across the spectrum and have different aspects. I was trying first to define "martial arts" in terms of commonalities. But as I've said, definitional arguments are always messy.

    But I wouldn't say SCA Heavy Combat is intended to be a very practical art outside the SCA subculture. It's oriented toward a sporting application. And, I'm sure Zorikh will correct me if I'm wrong, as it's used to determine a certain degree of public standing within the SCA organization, it has aspects of ritual combat too.

    I understood Polar Bear's point about HEMA/WMA being focused on a combative application. But I'm not sure that makes them somehow a "better" martial art. You can make qualitative judgments about arts within the same niche, but clearly SCA is not actively trying to fill the same niche as HEMA. All other things being equal, I'm betting the HEMA-trained fighter is better at fighting when life and limb are on the line.

    Many people here have an "all or nothing" approach to martial arts and practicality. With all the bullshido that's out there, I sympathize with them -- I do. That's why I prefer this this site to others. But I'm not "all or nothing."
  5. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 8:19pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    ...And, I'm sure Zorikh will correct me if I'm wrong, as it's used to determine a certain degree of public standing within the SCA organization, it has aspects of ritual combat too.
    This is as good a time to write down a thing or two about fighting in the SCA (of course these are my interpretations and may not reflect the opinions of other SCA folk or the corporate offices):

    Yes, SCA combat does help determine one's standing in certain specific instances.

    One becomes a knight by being expert at all weapons forms in addition to being the epitome of chivalry. According to some SCA traditions, a knight should also know heraldry, how to play chess, be able to write and perform a song or poen, and dance. The degree to which each knight fulfills all these definitions varies from place to place, time to time, and instance to instance.

    One becomes king by winning the tournament their kingdom holds once, twice, or three times a year (depending on the kingdom).

    The ritual aspect of SCA combat occurs before the fight begins. It is tradition to salute the crown (by whose grace the tourney is allowed to happen), The One Whose Favor You Bear (one should never seek honor simply for oneself, but should find someone deserving of the honor they win for whom to fight), to the crowd assembled to witness the fight (optional, but without the crowd, who would see the deeds of honor done?), and to one's noble and worthy opponent. Then, all tributes being done, the marshal cries "lay on" and the fight begins.

    It is also considered good form for someone to fall down when they are dead.
  6. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 8:28pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainzorikh View Post
    The ritual aspect of SCA combat occurs before the fight begins. It is tradition to salute the crown (by whose grace the tourney is allowed to happen), The One Whose Favor You Bear (one should never seek honor simply for oneself, but should find someone deserving of the honor they win for whom to fight), to the crowd assembled to witness the fight (optional, but without the crowd, who would see the deeds of honor done?), and to one's noble and worthy opponent. Then, all tributes being done, the marshal cries "lay on" and the fight begins.

    It is also considered good form for someone to fall down when they are dead.
    Perfectly acceptable in ritual combat.

    Perfectly ridiculous for a serious social engagement.

    Except for the falling down dead part. That may or may not be ridiculous, but is more or less automatic and have more permanent consequences.
  7. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 10:51pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I loaded this before it had replies, then went to work for a nice long time. So I'm just going to post without reloading that the OP made this thread to pick a fight/toot his own horn about what a great fake knight he is.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  8. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 11:19pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    I loaded this before it had replies, then went to work for a nice long time. So I'm just going to post without reloading that the OP made this thread to pick a fight/toot his own horn about what a great fake knight he is.
    I never claimed to be a knight, real or fake. I happened to see that some folks had been asking questions about the SCA and several folks were making claims and assumptions about the SCA based on brief interactions or secondhand contact, and I thought I might be able to contribute something in that regard.

    If I get a little passionate about it, it's only because it has been a very big part of my life for a very long time.
  9. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 11:21pm


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the problems I have with SCA shield sparring is the shields are indestructable. In reality, if you strapped your arm to a shield and used it like an impervious force-field of awesomeness (+3), you would probably lose that arm.

    I'm not sure about later era shields, but Viking shields which survive are generally between 6-12mm thick. That won't last very long against a weapon bashing it statically.

    I'm not saying there is really a solution to the problem, since destroying a shield during every sparring match would be expensive and ultimately unsustainable for most people. It's just annoying.
  10. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 12:56am


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by captainzorikh View Post
    So yes, there were tournaments in which grappling was forbidden. Not all, maybe not even most, but it did happen. And as I said, I like to think it is consistent with the spirit of chivalry to have it that way.
    What's unchivalrous about grappling? It was a common feature of ever knights training & most would have learned unarmed sportive wrestling before they ever picked up a sword. The Lichtenhauer tradition defined the primary knightly fighting skills as the ability to fight with sword, spear, dagger & wrestling. Wrestling is also a feature in pretty much every fighting manual from the medieval period. It seems to me that it would be unchivalrous to wrestle in violation of the rules, but in those cases where wrestling was not strictly prohibited there would be no unfair advantage to wrestling given that your opponent would also have every opportunity to do the same.

    Also, why do you "like to think it is consistent with the spirit of chivalry" to disallow wrestling? It makes it sound like you have some vested interest in the exclusion of wrestling. In my experience, the most typical motivation in such case is an issue of ego in which someone wants something excluded because they're afraid of their own inadequacies in that regard. Your style field says Grappling though, so it seems like you don't oppose wrestling, just wrestling in SCA combat. Why is that?

    P.S. I'll look up the book you mentioned. Thank you.
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