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  1. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 3:32pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post

    Going by the strict definitions some have advocated here, all the HEMA/ARMA styles could thus be considered non-martial arts.
    So the SCA is the only true martial art, because we are the only ones that actually have battles! Woo Hoo! I win! Nyah nyah nyah!

    Oh yeah, boffer LARPs do too...

    (ducking and running for cover):nike:
  2. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 3:47pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    I'll just pass on Kwan Dao's post here and skip straight to captainzorikh's post.

    You need to differentiate between ARMA and Hema/WMA...
    Thanks for the clarification and the links. Big help!
  3. KhorneliusPraxx is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 3:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: JackOAllTradesMasterONone

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1:12 for SCA Martial Skills in action.

    YouTube- Duffy Duck - Robin Hood
    Real Join Date: Nov. 2003

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbert
    "Driving without blood is surprisingly difficult."
  4. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 4:09pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by captainzorikh View Post
    Actually, we are pretending we are in armor, we are pretending that we are all wearing an iron helmet and a chain mail shirt...
    I stand corrected. The use of a single-handed sword & heater shield makes sense with chainmail. It does look very silly though when people are wearing plate.

    ...There is historical precedent for not grappling etc. In certain tournaments, grappling was forbidden. In a culture in which honor and chivalry is important, there is honor in playing by the rules and not taking unfair advantage of one's opponent, especially if you want to prove that you are better than him. To enter a tournament that only allows you to use weapons says that you are good enough with weapons that you don't need to grapple, or strike with the shield. And if you are facing someone like that, who would dare dishonor themselves by not fighting by the same rules? So while war is war, and fighting for your life is fighting for you life, it is perfectly within the chivalric tradition to fight by rules that disallow grappling and shield-bashing...
    I would be interested to see the documentation of historical tournaments in which grappling was disallowed. In my own experience I've seen no evidence of that before the advent of the small sword, although grappling was viewed in a variety of lights over the years.

    As to "shield-bashing": there are no period instructive manuals on the use of the heater or kite shields, but there is extensive artistic evidence as well as various mentions throughout period texts that can help to illuminate the use of such weapons. What I have seen & read leaves me with the distinct impression that it was typical to actively apply the shield, leading with the edge. I know of no historical source that suggests the use of the shield was regulated in duels or exhibition combat.
  5. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 4:29pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KhorneliusPraxx View Post
    1:12 for SCA Martial Skills in action.

    YouTube- Duffy Duck - Robin Hood
    Nice!

    ...except SCA rules do not allow stiking with both ends of a weapon, so many staff techniques are right out.

    (and yes, there are passionate debates within the SCA about whether we should have staff fighting, along with tonfas, flails, sais, madus, various and sundry missile weapons beyond those we already have, longer spears, spears with sliders, "clacker" polearms, tridents, nunchuks, punch daggers, thrusting tips on our elbows and knees so we can do muay thai fighting in armor, the weight of bows, killing from behind...)

    Betcha we'd see that stuff at a ren-faire, though!
  6. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 4:43pm


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Adding to SBG-ape's post about sword & shield. Here's what I know of manuscripts with shield work, but there are more:

    note: not quite sure what to call the specific type of shield but I have chosen to call them "jousting shields" for a couple of reasons.

    Ms I.33 - Buckler
    Codex Wallerstein - jousting shield, duelling shield
    Gladiatoria - jousting shield, Buckler (armed & unarmed), duelling shield
    Solothurner - duelling shield
    Paulus Kal - duelling shield, unarmed buckler
    Talhoffer 1459 - duelling shield, unarmed buckler
    Talhoffer 1467 - duelling shield, unarmed buckler
    Mair 1540 - Buckler

    Durer - buckler (just a few)

    Marozzo 1536 - Buckler, Rotella, Kite shield (1),
    Agrippa 1553 - Rotella
    DiGrassi 1570, 1594 - Buckler, Rotella
    Lovino 1580 - Buckler, Rotella
    Capoferro - Rotella

    Also, there are later manuscripts on the use of sword & targe. Have to take a look sometime and see if there is anything on shield work on horse. I haven't really focused on rossfechten since horses are evil animals with too big teeth... :)

    And yes, with strapped and centergrip shields it seems likely that they were used with a lot of angle allowing you to strike freely.
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 3/05/2010 4:47pm at .
  7. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 5:20pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would not consider SCA combat to be a martial art, personally, but I would consider it to be a combat sport. SCA combat, like Kendo, is highly ritualized and not performed with martial intent (martial arts = arts of Mars). If the SCA would want to form a martial arts, fighters should use proper fighting technique specific to armor and weapons used. By this I mean half-swording against plate and use of all weapon parts in combat (both ends of sword and staff for example).

    However I don't see it as being particularly insulting or malicious to say that the SCA does not train in martial arts. Consider the differences between the SCA and the ARMA, for example. The former is an anachronistic group, the latter is not. The former does not exclusively focus on combat, the latter does. I think that this discussion is sort of comparing lemons to oranges really, since the SCA and WMA\HEMA\ARMA groups specialize in differing goals.
  8. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 5:34pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It looks like I've missed most of the fun here. I've got to give up my job and family so I can train and be online all the time.

    And did Polar Bear really give up that easy? I'm surprised. He seemed so passionate...
  9. captainzorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 5:44pm


     Style: grappling, swordfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape View Post
    I stand corrected.

    I would be interested to see the documentation of historical tournaments in which grappling was disallowed. In my own experience I've seen no evidence of that before the advent of the small sword, although grappling was viewed in a variety of lights over the years.
    The book "The Medieval Tournament" by R. Coleman Clephan relates an incident during a tourney melee in 1253 in which, the Count de Chalons cast away his weapons and threw his arms around the neck of King Edward I, attempting to unhorse him, but was thrown to the ground himself by the king. "The exasperation of the French cavaliers on seeing their leader fall was very great, and for a time a real battle ensued...After this tournament laying hands on an opponent was strictly forbidden." The author cites two contemprary chroniclers, Matthew of Westminster and Thomas of Walsingham for this account.

    So yes, there were tournaments in which grappling was forbidden. Not all, maybe not even most, but it did happen. And as I said, I like to think it is consistent with the spirit of chivalry to have it that way.
  10. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 6:15pm


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well that is one prime example of the key differences between Hema and SCA and martial arts and martial sports. Chivalry is simply non-existent in the fechtbuchen during the Middle Ages and the early Renaissance. Instead there are specific techniques for attacking weak spots like arm pits, the throat, the genitals, the eyes, breaking joints etc.

    There is even an infamous passage in Codex Wallerstein giving young noblemen advice on how to rob peasants the easiest, by grabbing the skin of the throat and pierce it with a dagger, so the victim believes his throat is cut.

    The later fechtbuchen are a bit of a mix between self-defense and fighting for fun though, and sometimes include moves to make your opponent look silly and yourself more impressive. Still, the techniques rely on the same principles and strategies and are clearly within the same tradition. And the same thing happened in, for instance, Japan during approximately the same time period.
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