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  1. painbank

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2012 8:48pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    13. Intentionally striking an opponent outside the legal target areas is forbidden.

    This rings alarm bells, I’m not saying I dont see it’s purpose for safety reason but I feel safety should rely on technique and safety equipment.

    Removing target zones instantly makes it a sport, perhaps a martial sport but the training itself should be designed around no limitations to target zones because in a real situation this would be taken advantage of.

    For instance Arms, wrists, hands etc become open when someone doesn’t cover themselves during their attack and are open game otherwise you are teaching bad habits as the person will continue to exploit the rule system by using techniques that should be easily dealt with.

    Again this allows them to attack in manor which would otherwise be unsafe if the rule system was not protecting them, which I assume you will agree goes outside our definition.
    Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...rLjkRukXhEp.99
    Again, we are not discussing if it is a sport, but if it is an art form. As to not going out side the rules, well, lets step out and see if my training has limited my skills due to the rules... Has it limited it, yes, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to act outside the rule set in an actual conflict. Just as another poster about half way through the threads have claimed. Does it make me Bruce Leroy master of all things in a martial conflict, no, but it doesn't make me a dumb pell either.

    If this is your argument, then I state here and now that MMA is in fact also a Martial sport and anything short of actually seriously maiming, injuring or killing someone, then it is in fact a sport and not an art form. This also does not jive with our agreed upon definition.

    Lets resume to inspecting if SCA HC is in fact a martial art in what is taught an individual at it's base level.

    BTW, there is nothing to say we cannot modify our definition, but that will take a bit more discussion.
  2. painbank

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2012 8:57pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    a martial system should never be first to hit because this removes the need to cover lines and protect yourself during and even after the strike.

    One thing we insist on with our training is that even after a strike has connected you must be able to withdraw safely or continue with another technique covering the line i.e a draw cut, plunge cut etc.
    That is your opinion of how one acts within the rule set, but this just isn't true for a quality fighter within the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post

    So again the major issue in most these rules is that the remove the necessity to attack or defend ones-self "safely" with the weapon as the rule system gives a bubble of protection where false techniques will grow and multiply.
    Again, you are attacking the rule set and not the training itself, which is my proposition as to why SCA HC is a martial art form. It is of course geared toward the sport aspect, but a quality instructor will make sure the student learns the core tenants of how to fight and not just how to play the sport / point game. This in my opinion is what sets it apart. The problem is as others have pointed out and you are as well that there is lots of evidence out there of bad instruction and execution.

    There is nothing in our definition that says a martial art has to be the best system on the planet and all encompassing.

    I have alluded to a bit about the training, which is my basis of why I believe SCA HC qualifies as a martial art form.
  3. painbank

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2012 9:05pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    I hope this does not come off as offensive as I'm not trying to "attack" the sca system or its rules, I'm simply explaining why I differentiate it from W.M.A and H.E.M.A and wouldnt class it as the study or practice of a martial art.
    [/FONT][/COLOR]
    Thank you for this, as it did come off that way at first, when I started reading it. I would just like to get at the heart of this matter some and debunk a bullshit impression a few people here seems to have, which comes off to me as the following proposition:

    "Someone is trained in SCA HC and therefore, they are not worth a damn outside the rule set of the SCA in a martial conflict."

    IMHO, this just isn't true. It isn't even true when moving to a freeplay competition within a HEMA rule set. Especially when you take the higher quality SCA HC fighters and transition them over. Perhaps a short 'learning' period may be required, but the SCA HC fighter will become very competitive quite quickly.
  4. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 10:26am


     

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    MMA has a ruleset and yet it is still called a martial art. For that matter so is akkido, jkd, and tai chi, all of which have similar problems. So what's the difference if sca uses the term martial art??
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 10:32am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    MMA has a ruleset and yet it is still called a martial art.
    This actually supports V's argument. People vehemently disagree, you were in that thread, on MMA being a martial art like the specific styles you just named.
  6. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 11:17am


     

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    It seems like the difference between something being a martial art or martial sport would be based on the intent of the person training in that style. If someone is training in a style for the intent of fun and tournaments then it would be sport. I would think that would be regardless of the style or effectiveness of said style. Of course I could be off base on that, what does everyone else think??
  7. painbank

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 1:11pm


     

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    Which leads back to the discussion of the definition:

    "A Martial Art is required to be Codified. It is required to include all the codified techniques of a specific system related to attacking/defending one self in a martial conflict."

    However, just because someone trains for the sport, doesn't mean it cannot be applied to an actual conflict. The intent of the training may be toward the sport aspect, but use of it in a Martial Conflict can still be applied, albeit not as effectively as some art forms.

    For example you might say... with comments in ()

    I train in a Martial Art (applied to almost everything) for application in a Martial Sport, however, if I have to I can apply it in Martial Conflict and this is how I would expect to use it.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 1:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by painbank View Post
    Which leads back to the discussion of the definition:

    "A Martial Art is required to be Codified. It is required to include all the codified techniques of a specific system related to attacking/defending one self in a martial conflict."

    However, just because someone trains for the sport, doesn't mean it cannot be applied to an actual conflict. The intent of the training may be toward the sport aspect, but use of it in a Martial Conflict can still be applied, albeit not as effectively as some art forms.

    For example you might say... with comments in ()

    I train in a Martial Art (applied to almost everything) for application in a Martial Sport, however, if I have to I can apply it in Martial Conflict and this is how I would expect to use it.
    I'll let others argue or debate this with you because it is falling into semantics and sepeartion that I do not agree with.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martial%20art
    : any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/martial+arts
    any of the traditional forms of Oriental self-defense or combat that utilize physical skill and coordination without weapons, as karate, aikido, judo, or kung fu, often practiced as sport.
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...martial%2Barts
    various sports, which originated chiefly in Japan, Korea, and China as forms of self-defence or attack, such as judo, karate, and kendo:
    In other words, it will never be resolved because we all see it differently
  9. painbank

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 1:32pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    In other words, it will never be resolved because we all see it differently
    And I believe it will always be that way for everyone. Each person will have their own viewpoint, which will be very difficult to change. The problems with definitions is that they can change and in some cases should as the quotes you provided, at least the second 2 exclude from them HEMA/WMA as being a martial art. I feel the first one is even more general than the one I keep posting as the agreed upon definition.

    I believe you have posted previously about your feelings of the definition, but if not, can you? I also believe the first definition would classify SCA HC as a martial art.

    btw, do you have a link to the MMA discussion you mentioned?
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 1:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by painbank View Post

    I believe you have posted previously about your feelings of the definition, but if not, can you? I also believe the first definition would classify SCA HC as a martial art.
    Basically, it is close to what you say, but I don't separate it into sport, street, or any other classification. I do not know enough about the changes, but SCA started as various groups competing in SCA ruleset. You know just like MMA is still a rule set and not a Martial Art. MMA is heading in that direction as more people get ranked and are teaching a hybrid of the three or four main striking ranges.



    btw, do you have a link to the MMA discussion you mentioned?
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115774

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