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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 9:17am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUnique View Post
    Do you mean within the SCA? Because there's a lot of wider HEMA that's fine with grappling.
    Well, I don't want to answer for DdlR, but I don't think that he's restricting his commentary to just the SCA.

    There are some HEMA guys who are not only "fine" but competent, even "really good" with/at grappling. I know one Fiore guy in particular who specifically studied external grappling systems just so that he could better understand and apply grappling in the context of the system he studies. I have another friend who specifically likes Ringeck who is a good grappler and came to the German tradition with extant skills.

    But they and their like-minded brethren in HEMA, particularly in the Longsword studies seem to be in a minority (something under 50%) when compared to those who do anything more than just give lip-service to grappling within the context of their systems. And the percentage who give grappling consistent, continued, detailed study and allow/encourage usage in their fencing matches seems to be somewhere around 25%. The Longsword tournaments and Coached Fencing events that I've witnessed tend to neglect or even prohibit much in the way of grappling.

    So is grappling within the context of Longsword study completely absent from the "wider HEMA" community? Of course not. But it certainly seems to have taken a big back-seat to whacking each other with swords. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. GenericUnique is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 9:43am


     Style: WMA Lichtenauer Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think I started a thread on that topic... and the results of posting it on several forums were interesting. BS seemed to nod at it, and then talk about bringing in judo/kendo foot sweeps as opposed to the deeper grips and throws in most HEMA texts; [another forum - no cross-forum drama intended] talked about how to make sure grappling could be fitted in and trained well (along with dagger, and how tournament/sparring rules affected grappling training) while [a third] quickly became several forum "names" insisting grappling wasn't really useful, and noone would really historically study it for swordfighting. The TMA "BJJ doesn't work on lava/AIDS needles/teh street" argument, in other words...
  3. captain zorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2011 2:01am


     Style: bjj, sca, armored combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whoo boy, what did I create here?

    Well, the timing in this thread's revival is good for me also. I am currently going through the footage I shot for a new documentary called "Return to Pennsic." In it I interviewed several significant fighters, including Duke Paul of Belatrix (his SCA name and title. the title was earned by winning certain top-level tournaments), who is sort of the Babe Ruth / Bruce Lee of SCA combat.

    He has very strong opinions on such topics as whether or not SCA combat is a "martial art," whether or not grappling should be allowed, and very interesting theories (proven on the list field) about the applicability of certain martial arts techniques and principles to SCA combat (just to give you an idea, he was a top level judo competitor before entering the SCA).

    If anyone cares, I will post some of what he said up here. Maybe I'll do it if you don't care anyway. Hmmm...

    Here's a little preview of the documentary itself http://www.youtube.com/returntopennsic
    http://youtu.be/SqwmAcHifvQ

    Incidentally, before anyone gets the wrong idea, that video posted by rocketsurgeon (Thanks, BTW. that Chanel has lots of good stuff on it), while it did take place at Pennsic, is not combat under SCA rules. It appears to be part of the Tuchux tournament. From what I have heard, Tuchux rules say that three punches to the face counts as a kill. If that is true, the "rules lawer" is correct in that instance. And the marshal is really doing a substandard job, as he lets his attention wander from the fighter to listen to the guy yelling at him while the fight continues to rage...
    Last edited by captain zorikh; 9/05/2011 2:03am at . Reason: fix link
  4. captain zorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2011 2:15am


     Style: bjj, sca, armored combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoloFerratus View Post
    I don't involve myself with the SCA any more because they have no mission statement about their combative activities. People in the SCA argued with me that they intentionally have no mission statement but I fail to see why that makes it ok.
    The reason it matters to me is that I feel rules should have a logically stated goal and with out an official mission statement those rules will conflict with one another.
    Sorry you couldn't find a group that met your needs. I did find, however, something much like a "mission statement" for the SCA. It is in the by-laws of the organization. it says :
    III. OBJECTIVES AND PURPOSES
    The SCA shall be dedicated primarily to the promotion of research and re-creation in the field of pre-17thcentury Western culture, as stated in greater detail in Article II of the SCA’s Articles of Incorporation.

    ...and in the Articles of Incorporation it states...
    II. This corporation is a nonprofit public benefit corporation and is not organized for the
    private gain of any person. It is organized under the Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation Law for charitable
    purposes. The purposes for which this corporation is formed include:
    (a) Research and education in the field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture.
    (b) Generally, to engage in research; publish material of relevance and interest to the field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture; to present activities and events which re-create the environment of said era, such as, but not limited to, tournaments, jousts, fairs, dances, classes, et cetera; to acquire authentic or reproduced replicas of chattels representative of said era; and to collect a library.

    So there it is.
    http://www.sca.org/docs/pdf/govdocs.pdf
  5. captain zorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2011 9:35am


     Style: bjj, sca, armored combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    ...However, most HEMA-fencers appear to not see enough reason to invest about 6,000USD in armour....
    Just to dispell another misconception, a good suit of SCA-legal, historical accuaracy-acceptable armor can be had for less than $1000 USD. If you merely want to fight SCA rules and don't care what you look like and don't mind doing a little work, you can put together a suit for maybe a hundred or two hundred dollars.
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2011 9:01am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by captain zorikh View Post
    He has very strong opinions on such topics as whether or not SCA combat is a "martial art," whether or not grappling should be allowed, and very interesting theories (proven on the list field) about the applicability of certain martial arts techniques and principles to SCA combat (just to give you an idea, he was a top level judo competitor before entering the SCA).
    Top level Judo players are also top level athletes. The things that a top level athlete can "make work" aren't necessarily even vaguely related to what the rest of us mere mortals can achieve. No offense to said worthy, but just because he's "proven [it] on the list field" doesn't mean much for the rest of us average joes.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. captain zorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2011 12:31pm


     Style: bjj, sca, armored combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=lklawson;2599155]Top level Judo players are also top level athletes. The things that a top level athlete can "make work" aren't necessarily even vaguely related to what the rest of us mere mortals can achieve. No offense to said worthy, but just because he's "proven [it] on the list field" doesn't mean much for the rest of us average joes.
    /QUOTE]

    The way it seemed to me, the principles he uses can be used by most anyone, not just top level athletes. He doesn't have to "make things work," they do work, for a lot of people.

    Incidentally, for your amusement, I posted up a little video of me showing what little I know that works to my co-host for the documentary I shot...
    http://youtu.be/a3el9AfYF8c
  8. captain zorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2011 4:24pm


     Style: bjj, sca, armored combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Top level Judo players are also top level athletes. The things that a top level athlete can "make work" aren't necessarily even vaguely related to what the rest of us mere mortals can achieve. No offense to said worthy, but just because he's "proven [it] on the list field" doesn't mean much for the rest of us average joes.
    It seems to me that his knowledge of human kinesthetics through his experience in judo has helped him develop techniques that do work for average joes. Therefore, in this particular case, he is not "making work" something that otherwise wouldn't. He teaches, mostly, now, And spends almost all his time at Pennsic giving classes in his technique. I'll post up the interviews when I get them ready.
  9. rocketsurgeon is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2011 8:35am


     Style: hard work work

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Paul of Bellatrix has most assuredly produced fighters who excel using his methods, some of which I'm sure were average joes. Captain, I'm always interested to listen to his thoughts when I get the chance, I'd appreciate you posting any vids.

    Paul reinforces my belief that the SCA is what you make of it, and that you will likely achieve success if you treat it as a martial art. If we're still trying to debate whether SCA is a martial art I still say "No, but..." The aims of the organization in general have no martial content, and the heavy fighting is "Have fun, be safe." I keep saying "No, but..." for this and other reasons, one being that it's unfair to send somebody to a local practice expecting a structured martial arts experience.

    Also, as to the Tuchux tourney vid, the rules that day stated deaths had to be from a weapon and all grappling would go til it finished. This year if nobody was improving position or making progress then a five count would start and they would stand you up.
  10. captain zorikh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2011 4:52pm


     Style: bjj, sca, armored combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoloFerratus View Post

    I don't involve myself with the SCA any more because they have no mission statement about their combative activities. People in the SCA argued with me that they intentionally have no mission statement but I fail to see why that makes it ok.
    The reason it matters to me is that I feel rules should have a logically stated goal and with out an official mission statement those rules will conflict with one another.
    I was intrigues by your question of a SCA "mission statement" regardingcombative activiities, so I looked up their governing documents (which can be found at http://www.sca.org).

    They bylaws state...
    III. OBJECTIVES AND PURPOSES
    The SCA shall be dedicated primarily to the promotion of research and re-creation in the field of pre-17th century Western culture, as stated in greater detail in Article II of the SCA’s Articles of Incorporation.



    The articles of incorporation state...

    II. This corporation is a nonprofit public benefit corporation and is not organized for the
    private gain of any person. It is organized under the Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation Law for charitable purposes. The purposes for which this corporation is formed include:
    (a) Research and education in the field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture.
    (b) Generally, to engage in research; publish material of relevance and interest to the field of pre-17th-Century Western Culture; to present activities and events which re-create the environment of said era, such as, but not limited to, tournaments, jousts, fairs, dances, classes, et cetera;


    In as much as armored combat is a part of pre-17th Century Western culture, that is the mission of the martial activities of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.
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