223868 Bullies, 3741 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 431 to 440 of 512
Page 44 of 52 FirstFirst ... 344041424344 45464748 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Grimnir69 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    131

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 4:13am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Perhaps, although to have any real value, it should be done in good armour. Of course we could have some modern form of competitions with any kind of gear, but that would likely introduce a lot of artifacts and not be very similar to real harnischfechten. Sounds fun though.

    In a way it has already been included in some of the regular unarmoured competitions where grappling, kicking, punching, disarming and submission is allowed. Halfswording out of armour is tricky though, since the only reason I see to do so is to close distance for grappling, which is really hard to do well with half-swording, in unarmoured fencing.

    I am sure that if we saw some more openness between the HEMA community and the parts of the SCA community which actually focuses on the same sources and techniques, we would see a lot more development in this area. However, most HEMA-fencers appear to not see enough reason to invest about 6,000USD in armour. And too few SCA fencers co-train with HEMA fencers, although I know a few who do.
  2. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 4:34am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The US longsword tournaments I've seen so far have always been frustrating because they tend to stop the action just as it's getting interesting (breaking after 2 or 3 seconds of grappling, etc.) If I was still seriously into longsword fencing, I'd happily accept the compromises away from true historical accuracy in order to really explore those 2/3rds of the art that are seldom allowed under the prevalent rules today. Although really, the compromises of using modern armor etc. are no more artificial than those requiring people to separate after a few seconds of grappling.
  3. Grimnir69 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    131

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 4:50am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    True and you have a point here. Although I think that the actual grappling in armour is quite different in many ways from the grappling out of armour.

    Also, the grappling is more commonly driven beyond what you describe at practice, even with submission by choking. At practice in our club, the grappling can extend to a minute or so. Damn tough, and it has given me a much deeper respect for those who practice it. It really drains your strength away when you can't breathe properly...

    I'm not quite sure why it is so often set up like this. Maybe it has to do with the fact that most spectators want to see fencing and not grappling?

    I have a recent clip somewhere, from Poland I think, where they had separate Ringen competitions which looked bloody marvelous. I'll see if I can find it.
  4. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 5:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I was seriously into longsword (circa 1999), we used a mish-mash of sports protective gear (but pretty good looking mish-mash, actually), fenced with modified shinai and always assumed armored combat. Most bouts went to the ground, but they didn't always stay there.

    Honestly, I think the reluctance is due to a combination of factors; the sad fact that a lot of people in historical fencing still aren't too comfortable with throwing and falling in a competitive setting, a perception that "people are here to see sword fighting, not wrestling" (sometimes used as an excuse, IMO), some valid concerns about equipment (mats/lack of mats, what kind of protective gear/armor is safe for this type of bouting, etc).
  5. Grimnir69 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Posts
    131

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 5:27am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Probably true what you say here. We're still working on a lot of issues concerning how to preserve the martial arts in a martial sports setting. Fortunately we are now beginning to see a clear interest from fencing suppliers and manufacturers of equipment and more and more specific gear that suits our needs. Allstar and PBT are actually working on HEMA fencing jackets which is amazing. Knightshop will soon release gloves for steel and nylon fencing.

    Only a few clubs still use shinai and many turn to steel longswords and especially those called "federschwert", which "feel" very much like sharp swords in their handling. The Albion Meyers are the most popular, and expensive, but swordsmiths like Peter Regenyei and Jan Chodkiewicz (also damn good fencer) offer really good and competetive alternatives at a third of the cost.

    I agree that many hesitate regarding the grappling. As opposed to the people who came up with what we study, few of us have enough time to really learn every aspect well enough, and most of us started when we were a bit too old. Consequently, many only practice one weapon or two and a bit of grappling on the side, possibly. Our club practices it two months per year, and some try to include it in the regular fencing, although it is difficult against someone who is good at working with good distance and timing.

    Also, to me it seems to be more common with wrestling with less experienced fencers who tend to come closer to each other. I know I used to wrestle more a few years ago, but now neither I or my opponents lets the other come that close or at least quite rarely. With harnischfechten this is of course quite different, since you pretty much start at that distance...

    Here's the grappling competition clip I mentioned btw. The grappling is at 04:11, but the preceding longsword is also really good fencing, although perhaps more for the aggressiveness than the techniques, even if some have great technical skill which is a bit hard to catch in the middle of the flurry of cuts and quick winden;

    Last edited by Grimnir69; 8/04/2011 5:33am at .
  6. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 8:42am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Honestly, I think the reluctance is due to a combination of factors; the sad fact that a lot of people in historical fencing still aren't too comfortable with throwing and falling in a competitive setting
    That's not a completely unjustified concern.

    Even when people know how to control a throw and "safely" fall, things can go wonky in a hurry. My right shoulder has about 10-20% reduced range of motion (to the back) from a friendly Judo randori a few years back. It sidelined me for weeks while I healed enough to get back in the game and took well over a year for my middle-aged body to fully heal. Ken Pfrenger busted up one of his ankles pretty nastily from a friendly wrestling match with a throw that planted him in the wall. Heck, falling and controlling throws is green-belt stuff in throwing arts and wonky stuff still happens to "advanced students." How many Judo Yudansha have blown knees from comps?

    And it gets worse with people who want to tense up when they fall or do any other of a zillion goofball things that will hurt themselves. So I understand why a lot of people who are into historical fencing aren't comfortable with grappling and falling in a competitive setting.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "don't grapple" at all. What I'm am saying is that if those folks who do historic fencing aren't comfortable grappling, then they need to go back to school and get comfortable. Because if they can't at least take a a fall without injuring themselves or if they can't control their opponent on the way down then they aren't READY to do competitive sparring and they aren't as "advanced" a student as they think they are.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. rocketsurgeon is offline
    rocketsurgeon's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The flip side. Ok really Pittsburgh.
    Posts
    142

    Posted On:
    8/04/2011 10:04am


     Style: hard work work

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoloFerratus View Post
    Snip

    I don't involve myself with the SCA any more because they have no mission statement about their combative activities. People in the SCA argued with me that they intentionally have no mission statement but I fail to see why that makes it ok.
    The reason it matters to me is that I feel rules should have a logically stated goal and with out an official mission statement those rules will conflict with one another.
    ...
    To sum it up I didn't like either group.
    It lives! The thread won't die!

    I don't expect anyone to read 40+ pages, so I'll repeat myself. The SCA is not a martial organization. It encompasses many activities which range widely in historical accuracy. Some are extremely accurate, like sewing, brewing, and blacksmithing. I camp with guys that won't even use modern bellows when forging something. On the other end are pretty much all martial activities. The SCA includes Combat Archery. That will tell you right there how realistic it is, because think about how much you have to change an arrow to make it safe to shoot at someone. The rules were not designed with realism or a martial mission in mind.

    That said, you can find people who treat it like a martial art, who train with a purpose, and who even fight outside the ruleset when possible. You can find people who will call back a blow, telling you that their blade was flat, while others give no thought to their hand alignment and treat it like the stick it is.

    The resurrection of this thread is timely because the event which includes my favorite tournament is going on now, the fighting starts Saturday. Instead of really good swordsmen with proper weapons who are trying some grappling you get some really enthusiastic fighters of all levels who can do pretty much whatever they want provided they get a kill with a weapon or submission. Here's an example of someone getting punched in the taint:



    A couple of things about this vid, I don't think the taint puncher has ever thrown a proper punch in his life, and the rules lawyer on the sideline didn't know what he was talking about, and there is some kind of hilarious instrument being played. Also, weapons are chosen randomly by picking a card before the bout, so you never know what you're going to end up with. None of which are really weighted correctly. There's usually a giant rubber sledge that says ACME.

    It's chaos, and I love it, and it's part of the SCA. Is it perfect? Hell no. Is there a mission statement, curriculum, or demand for absolute realism? Nope. But I get to hit people who also really like to hit people, and any time I can find a place like that I call it a win.

    Hopefully I can get good vids of this tournament next week, I promise I'll post it if I get punched in the taint.
  8. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 4:39am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    That's not a completely unjustified concern.

    Even when people know how to control a throw and "safely" fall, things can go wonky in a hurry. My right shoulder has about 10-20% reduced range of motion (to the back) from a friendly Judo randori a few years back. It sidelined me for weeks while I healed enough to get back in the game and took well over a year for my middle-aged body to fully heal. Ken Pfrenger busted up one of his ankles pretty nastily from a friendly wrestling match with a throw that planted him in the wall. Heck, falling and controlling throws is green-belt stuff in throwing arts and wonky stuff still happens to "advanced students." How many Judo Yudansha have blown knees from comps?

    And it gets worse with people who want to tense up when they fall or do any other of a zillion goofball things that will hurt themselves. So I understand why a lot of people who are into historical fencing aren't comfortable with grappling and falling in a competitive setting.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "don't grapple" at all. What I'm am saying is that if those folks who do historic fencing aren't comfortable grappling, then they need to go back to school and get comfortable. Because if they can't at least take a a fall without injuring themselves or if they can't control their opponent on the way down then they aren't READY to do competitive sparring and they aren't as "advanced" a student as they think they are.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    I'm saying the same thing; it just seems like a missed opportunity to me that when grappling and throwing were obviously major aspects of many historical fencing systems, there doesn't seem to be a competitive outlet for that type of fencing. Even the training that would support it seems (widely, not exclusively) lacking.
  9. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 6:59am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I'm saying the same thing; it just seems like a missed opportunity to me that when grappling and throwing were obviously major aspects of many historical fencing systems, there doesn't seem to be a competitive outlet for that type of fencing. Even the training that would support it seems (widely, not exclusively) lacking.
    <nods enthusiastically>

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  10. GenericUnique is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    55

    Posted On:
    8/05/2011 7:46am


     Style: WMA Lichtenauer Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I'm saying the same thing; it just seems like a missed opportunity to me that when grappling and throwing were obviously major aspects of many historical fencing systems, there doesn't seem to be a competitive outlet for that type of fencing. Even the training that would support it seems (widely, not exclusively) lacking.
    Do you mean within the SCA? Because there's a lot of wider HEMA that's fine with grappling.
Page 44 of 52 FirstFirst ... 344041424344 45464748 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.