Really, I am pretty sure I heard someone talking about using SCA skills in a real fight. Maybe another SCA/HEMA thread, then.
Originally Posted by captainzorikh
Maybe I was a bit short, but these discussions tend to be more than a little repetetive, and after the first ten pages, things come back in circles as new posters enter the discussion.
And, comparing historical zulu stick fighting techniques to European medieval and renaissance sword fencing is a bit complicated.
weapons throwdown (stab-up)???????
Nobody said SCA techniques are useless. It's like saying boxing can't help you out in a fight.
What we were discussing is how efficient they are comparing to historical technique.
For newcomers to this thread: this thread is about anything at all regarding SCA combat. Perhaps it's my fault for starting a thread with such broad parameters, but within the past 43 pages you can find questions and clarifications on the rules of SCA combat, advice on how to get armor and the cost, discussion about how to keep from "rhino-hiding," debates on whether SCA combat is a martial art, a little talk about its origins, discussions about certain techniques and how and whether they would work, compare/contrasts with HEMA, and a bunch of videos.
So there is a lot to read here for anyone interested in the overall matter of SCA combat.
There is still room for further discussions on a few things, but please, new posters, if you have a comment to make, try to see if the subject wasn't covered earlier, and if you have a comment directed at a particular part of the discussion, try to quote the relevant passage or at least cite the page #.
Originally Posted by captainzorikh
I suggest adding it to the first post.
In the beginning.
After all these pages of posts, I just thought I would post some video of me doing SCA combat so all you HEMA geeks can see who started this thread and talk about my bad footwork, poor technique, lack of grappling, unrealistic ruleset, the fact that I don't put my hip into my blow, and how silly it is that we fight on our knees.
If anyone has anything positive, constructive, or curious they would like to post, that's cool too ;)
This took place at a demonstration done by the Crown Province of Ostgardr at the Queens County Farm Museum County Fair. I had not fought in several months. And yes, I did win a few matches that day, they just weren't caught on camera.
LOOK! VIDEO OF PEOPLE HITTING EACH OTHER IN THE HEAD WITH A STICK!
YouTube - Captain Zorikh (Ervald the Optimistic) SCA combat fighting at Queens County Fair
Ok I skimmed through many of the pages on this thread and concluded that the topic was too broad to require new posters to read through the entire thing before posting. I seriously doubt that the majority of posters on here read every post or even every page of postings before doing so. I don't feel my post was inappropriate.
I don't involve myself with the SCA any more because they have no mission statement about their combative activities. People in the SCA argued with me that they intentionally have no mission statement but I fail to see why that makes it ok.
The reason it matters to me is that I feel rules should have a logically stated goal and with out an official mission statement those rules will conflict with one another.
I looked into The local HEMA group in my area and found their sparring rules to be too fantasy like for my interest. Aside from that very few of those people even had or wanted to spar in armor. I could have helped them to gear up since I'm also an experience armorer but since they were not friendly people I chose not to do so.
Specifically they did not allow thrusting attacks to the face area and they also sparred with weapons that were less than half the weight of the weapon they were simulating. Aside from that I felt their attacks were too lite to know if a person wearing even quilted cloth would have been disabled by the attacks that were being counted. If they want to prove me wrong using scientific data instead of only vaguely written historical documents I will look at the evidence. In any case I don't spar with kendo sticks while also ruling out face thrusts because to me it makes for a fantasy combat.
To sum it up I didn't like either group.
Last edited by NoloFerratus; 8/03/2011 5:42pm at .
Reason: no page break in point
It is hard to tell from your post how and why the HEMA group you mention practice the way they do. From your post it seems as if they might be using Kendo Shinai, which I think really is no good and few use them any more, not least because they are quite dangerous in full force thrusting and do not behave like a real sword at all. Many HEMA clubs today use a combination of nylon and steel longswords, since they "behave" like the real thing more or less.
A normal longsword should weigh about 1.2-2.2kg a bit depending on what you are simulating, with a norm at about 1.5-1.6kg. However, the balance is much more important than the weight. A sharp sword feels scarily agile, almost like holding nothing at all.
Most groups allow thrusting to the head and striking to the whole body, including wrestling. We even allow kicking and punching, as do several others. We do it controlled and moderately though, since we do not want to cause injuries more severe than bruises.
Most HEMA fencing, but not all, revolves around unarmoured fighting, which might explain their reluctance to work on armoured fighting. The main reasons I think are two. First of all the cost. A good suit of armour designed for you and not just stock items will cost you quite a lot of money.
Second, if you look to the sources, the armour does not protect you from the techniques, since you will be using the sword as a war hammer or a spear thrusting in the gaps of the armour, ie the eyes, the throat/neck, insides of the arms and legs, the crotch, the palms of the hands and the soles of the feet. Of course depending a bit on the suit. This makes full contact sparring a bit difficult and competitions actually dangerous. We're not quite sure how to handle this yet.
Most period sources also indicate that about 2/3 of the armoured single combat ended up with the combatants in grappling on the ground, not seldom stabbing their rondell daggers into the face of the opponent.
This type of grappling is called "Ringen" and it is done both in and out of armour. Here is a clip of unarmoured Ringen. Keep in mind that it is the friendly version. Many of the techniques should really end with the enemy landing on their faces or their neck, breaking their necks in the process:
Regarding the lightness of the strikes it varies quite a lot. Some strike light, some strike quite hard and the current trend is to strike harder. If you check out the Eastern European fencers they strike really hard.
And it requires surprisingly little force to cut very deep into fabric and flesh with a sharp sword.
Here are a few clips showing a bit of the competitions my club held last year.
I'll take a look at your clip a bit later, when I have more time. :)
Last edited by Grimnir69; 8/04/2011 3:05am at .
Double post. Not sure how to delete it.
Last edited by Grimnir69; 8/04/2011 2:37am at .
It's always seemed to me that the obvious solution is to hold "armored" tournaments (using whatever combination of simulators and protective gear people have) that actually recognize that latter point. Let people fight at the half-sword, ignore thrusts to targets like the eyes, palms of the hands etc. and let armored tournament combat be sword-grappling, including disarms, throws and pins. Submission decided by whoever achieves a position from which he could kill the other guy if they were fighting for real.
Originally Posted by Grimnir69
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