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  1. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape View Post

    Also, & I've said this before, fighting sword & shield when wearing plate just makes people look silly.
    That depends on the century. When plate was starting to make its appearance in the early 14th century the shield remained a staple piece of every knight, even outside the joust. The sword (one-handed) is really what was used less. After all a mace and shield is a good alternative to sword and shield. Even at the mid 14th century, the classic heater shield was still a very common sight on the battlefield. Even though by this point the body was at least somewhere between 30%-70% covered by plate armour (depending on the individual) the shield remained. The shield seems to really start falling out of style when the coat of plates are replaced with the breastplate.

    Even in the last years of the 14th century it is common to see men with pigface bascinets and plate legs and I'm assuming a breast plate under their fabric fighting with swords and bucklers. Thats even common in 15th century illuminations.

    The only things that look silly are out of period shields...
    Last edited by Thunderstick; 8/16/2010 3:28pm at .
  2. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:25pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    That depends on the century. When plate was starting to make its appearance in the early 14th century the shield remained a staple piece of every knight. even outside the joust. The sword (one-handed) is really what was used less. After all a mace and shield is a good alternative to sword and shield.

    Even in the last years of the 14th century it is common to see men with pigface bascinets and plate legs and I'm assuming a breast plate under their fabric fighting with swords and bucklers. Thats even common in 15th century illuminations.

    The only things that look silly are out of period shields...
    By plate I assume he means full plate harness, which was commonplace (as far as knights are concerned) in the last quarter of the 14th century onwards.

    The plate and maille combination you refer to, popular in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, was all but abandoned then.

    While noone doubts there were people who did wear such stuff until much later (hell, people fought with longswords until the 1700s), it was a very small minority (like the Serbians I referred to were a minority of the shield & plate combination).
  3. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    By plate I assume he means full plate harness, which was commonplace (as far as knights are concerned) in the last quarter of the 14th century onwards.

    The plate and maille combination you refer to, popular in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, was all but abandoned then.

    While noone doubts there were people who did wear such stuff until much later (hell, people fought with longswords until the 1700s), it was a very small minority (like the Serbians I referred to were a minority of the shield & plate combination).
    You just don't quit do you.

    First off, there wasn't much of a maile plate combination in the late 13th century with the exception of maybe maile, a helm, poleyns, and if you were lucky couters. it wasn't until the teens and 20's of the 14th that you started seeing greaves, vambraces and so on.

    And take it from someone who has looked and a lot of illumination, the shield still enjoyed wide spread use even in the last quarter of the 14th century. Especially during the tilt, but also with one hand weapons more effective against plate, (i.e. swords with a more accute thrusting tips, maces,hammers etc..) Though, yes the shield is less and less frequent with knights and nobility it doesn't totally disappear by the end of the 14th century either. Believe it or not they actually show up in the 15th century as well.
    Last edited by Thunderstick; 8/16/2010 3:49pm at .
  4. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:53pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    You just don't quit do you.
    That's the point of a dialogue. You want a monologue, start a blog.

    First off, their wasn't much of a maile plate combination in the late 13th century with the exception of may maile, a helm, poleyns, and if you were lucky couters. it wasn't until the teens and 20's of the 14th that you started seeing greaves, vambraces and so on.
    It's still mail and plate, just at its infancy. It's when it starts being developed from a few odd pieces here and there to the almost-fully covered by plate suit of maille prominent in the mid-14th century.

    And take it from someone who has looked and a lot of illumination, the shield still enjoyed wide spread use even in the last quarter of the 14th century. Especially during the tilt, but also with one hand weapons more effective against plate, (i.e. swords with a more accute thrusting tips, maces,hammers etc..) Though, yes the shield is less and less frequent with knights and nobility it doesn't totally disappear by the end of the 14th century either. Believe it or not they actually show up in the 15th century as well.
    Nothing goes poof after a certain date, though how widespread it was by then is under debate. Considering we do not have any fechtbucher dealing with the shield, we'll have to trust the artwork of the era (as much as you can trust artwork anyway).

    Of course, the rotella remains common with the Spanish well into the 16th century, but that's a different kind of fighting anyway.
  5. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can argue with me as much as you want about S.C.A. being a martial art or not. But don't throw the gauntlet on whats period. Thats an arena I'll surely whip you on. (Even though I'm in the S.C.A.....)
  6. Ningirsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 4:01pm

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     Style: Longsword, Krav Maga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Although discussing arms and armor is cool and maybe great for another thread, I think we're getting off topic.

    But to be perfectly honest, we have 40 pages discussing the differences between HEMA and SCA. What else needs to be said? We've already resurrected issues already concluded upon.
  7. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 4:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post

    It's still mail and plate, just at its infancy. It's when it starts being developed from a few odd pieces here and there to the almost-fully covered by plate suit of maille prominent in the mid-14th century.
    ______________________________________

    Yep. was just trying to make sure we were talking about the same late 13th.
    ________________________________________

    Nothing goes poof after a certain date, though how widespread it was by then is under debate. Considering we do not have any fechtbucher dealing with the shield, we'll have to trust the artwork of the era (as much as you can trust artwork anyway).
    ________________________________

    I see a shield in one hand and a war-hammer in the other as perfectly viable against plate armour...
    ___________________________________
    Of course, the rotella remains common with the Spanish well into the 16th century, but that's a different kind of fighting anyway.
    __________________________________

    In Italy as well..
    ______________
    Last edited by Thunderstick; 8/16/2010 4:11pm at .
  8. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 4:36pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    You can argue with me as much as you want about S.C.A. being a martial art or not. But don't throw the gauntlet on whats period. Thats an arena I'll surely whip you on. (Even though I'm in the S.C.A.....)
    And while we're at it, we can measure our dicks, too.

    ...not everything has to be as to who is better than somebody. Unlike you, I don't mind being corrected on anything, since that's part of the learning process. Especially when that something is important to me too- being better is more important than my ego.

    In other words- if you're right and I'm wrong, all the better, I learned something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ningirsu View Post
    Although discussing arms and armor is cool and maybe great for another thread, I think we're getting off topic.
    True that.

    But to be perfectly honest, we have 40 pages discussing the differences between HEMA and SCA. What else needs to be said? We've already resurrected issues already concluded upon.
    That's true, and it would've stayed that way if Thunderstick hadn't charged in to defend his damsel in distress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    I see a shield in one hand and a war-hammer in the other as perfectly viable against plate armour...
    Single-handed warhammers and maces were common indeed in the age of plate, as countless specimens indicate, and they would probably be paired with a shield too.

    But yeah, we're off-topic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    In Italy as well..
    Yeah, my bad, I had the Spanish Rotella Men and Marozzo's illustration in mind, forgot to mention Italy.
  9. JimDesu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 10:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape View Post
    Itís not about athleticism. Steel blunts arenít significantly different in balance or weight from wood or plastic wasters.
    I'd love to know where you get your wasters. My brother's wasters feel entirely different than his longswords & sabers.
  10. Ningirsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2010 1:24am

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     Style: Longsword, Krav Maga

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimDesu View Post
    I'd love to know where you get your wasters. My brother's wasters feel entirely different than his longswords & sabers.
    ARMA members typically use wood wasters by New Sterling Arms, and steel longswords by Albion Swords.

    As for the nylons, I think Brian Hunt (an ARMA member) makes them. I have one, and I personally like them a lot due to their more steel-like behavior. They are not without disadvantages, but everything's a tradeoff when it comes to training tools.

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