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  1. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 10:47am


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    Nope not at all. I don't feel thats what we do. Maybe in comparison to what ARMA does.
    You might want to clarify that, since right now it comes across us "No, we don't apishly club people into concussion. Maybe in comparison with what ARMA does", and since you have not defined what ARMA does (according to your own opinion, of course), the common definition would be that it does a correct historical martial art.
  2. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 11:34am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know what ARMA, if you guys are so damn historical ya'll should really go fight these guys. When ya'll fight these guys and win maybe people will give a damn about what ya'll have to say. Win the S.C.A. beats ya'lls asses you turn into little cry babies scream about how unfair it was because of or rules. *sniffle*

    Really, all Dallas and others like him, plus a few SCAers are doing on here is making this stuff more than what it is.

    Its fighting! You want to prove your system? Do what the Gracie's did. Put your money where your mouth is.

    A lot of you commenting on this topic act like you have patches on the elbows of your jackets and are smoking a pipe. "Its really quite elementary." Really then prove it. You really just sound like idiots.

    I have no problem making a new kit that is up to Arma requirements and do some fights with them on their own turf. I really doubt the outcome would be any different the the arma fighters I've already fought in the sca.

    Honestly we just need an organization like these guys have in Russia and Eastern Europe to settle it once and for all. I have my money on the s.c.a.

    And ARMA vs. these guys (Battle of the Nation). I Seriously have my money on the Battle of the Nation guys, in overwhelming odds!

    Funny they have no rules and they look a lot more like SCA combat than ARMA. Looks like SCA with punching kicking and grappling.

    go to 3:55

    YouTube- Битва наций. 1 часть Отборочного турнира в Киеве

    YouTube- Битва наций. 4 часть Отборочного турнира в Киеве

    YouTube- Битва наций. 3 часть Отборочного турнира в Киеве.

    YouTube- Битва наций - Хотин (02.05.2010)

    one on ones

    YouTube- Игорь Зотов. битва наций

    YouTube- 1 часть турнир 2009 Петербург щит меч

    YouTube- 2 часть турнир 2009 Петербург щит меч
    Last edited by Thunderstick; 8/16/2010 11:42am at .
  3. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 12:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post

    Concepts and tactics, sure. But fighting with a sword is quite a big change, I assure you.

    Yeah, You've said it so many times I'm starting to wonder about your athletic ability. I've fought with and used swords and I never found the transition from waster to sword all that life changing. But I guess some of us were born with more physical talent than others.

    BTW the S.C.A. does have live steel authorization, (in more than one type I believe) and a number of live steel fighters who do work more like that which ARMA does for those of you who didn't know...
  4. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 12:07pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    You know what ARMA, if you guys are so damn historical ya'll should really go fight these guys. When ya'll fight these guys and win maybe people will give a damn about what ya'll have to say. Win the S.C.A. beats ya'lls asses you turn into little cry babies scream about how unfair it was because of or rules. *sniffle*

    Really, all Dallas and others like him, plus a few SCAers are doing on here is making this stuff more than what it is.

    Its fighting! You want to prove your system? Do what the Gracie's did. Put your money where your mouth is.

    A lot of you commenting on this topic act like you have patches on the elbows of your jackets and are smoking a pipe. "Its really quite elementary." Really then prove it. You really just sound like idiots.

    I have no problem making a new kit that is up to Arma requirements and do some fights with them on their own turf. I really doubt the outcome would be any different the the arma fighters I've already fought in the sca.
    As I said, I'm more than willing to do this, were it not for distance issues. However, I'm sure there's a place where you can make your challenge (actually, two):

    ARMA in particular:
    http://www.thearma.org/forum/index.php
    HEMA in general:
    http://martialchallenge.wikia.com/wi...Challenge_Wiki

    Though I hope you'll have good enough manners there to prove that your money is on your skills and not your attempts to insult them or making claims.

    And I'll remember to take up that challenge as well if I ever manage to get to the States.

    Honestly we just need an organization like these guys have in Russia and Eastern Europe to settle it once and for all. I have my money on the s.c.a.

    And ARMA vs. these guys (Battle of the Nation). I Seriously have my money on the Battle of the Nation guys, in overwhelming odds!

    Funny they have no rules and they look a lot more like SCA combat than ARMA. Looks like SCA with punching kicking and grappling.
    I'll take a look at these before I comment.
  5. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 12:13pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    Yeah, You've said it so many times I'm starting to wonder about your athletic ability. I've fought with and used swords and I never found the transition from waster to sword all that life changing. But I guess some of us were born with more physical talent than others.
    You just said you've never been in a real fight with a sword. So I take it that all your "skill" comes from training and bouting in the SCA, so I'll take such claims with a grain of salt. Or several.

    And you can keep making claims all day long until you prove them, as you yourself said. So in the meantime, stick to the technical facts, or post videos of your "fighting", at the very least.

    BTW the S.C.A. does have live steel authorization, (in more than one type I believe) and a number of live steel fighters who do work more like that which ARMA does for those of you who didn't know...
    Info on that? Never heard of that before.
  6. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 12:40pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all its important to note that ARMA is not HEMA in the same way that squares are not all rectangles. ARMA is one HEMA group that happens to put out a fair amount of video material featuring fighters of good quality. So, while ARMA videos are being used for the sake of availability & convenience, not all HEMA enthusiasts on this forum are ARMA member. I myself am not.

    As for doing what the Gracies did, its worth noting they never went to a TKD school & said lets fight under your rules. They said lets fight under a rule set that lets you do what you want to do & allows us to do what we want to do. I for one am always happy to spar with people from diverse backgrounds. The members of ARMA who Ive met, & most of the other HEMA practitioners I know, feel the same way.

    Now, the Russian videos are quite interesting. I believe the differences between sword & shield & the Longsword have already been touched upon in this thread, as have the differences between unarmored & armored combat, but I think they bear reviewing.

    In armor glancing blows can often be ignored & in plate armor blows with the sword are unlikely to be particularly effective or significant. Most of the ARMA videos posted have been of unarmored combat with Longsword. Fencing masks were worn for safety, but a solid blow to the mask is assumed to be a blow to the bare head. This is important as, in the Russian videos several blows to the helm were ignored. I do not know if the blows skipped off or if they landed cleanly, but the same blows without head protection would have very different effects & that should be remembered. When fighting unarmored with a Longsword the primary tools of defense are control of distance & use of the sword itself. With plate armor cuts can be ignored & fighters are free to close & grapple.

    There are no known historical sources teaching the use of sword & shield in chainmail, so I can only speculate as to how things were done with such weapons. In all the videos posted (both SCA & Russian) there seems a tendency to wade in & trade blows on the inside when fighting sword & shield. In that respect Thunderstick is right that the Russian videos look more like the SCA then what is typical of HEMA practitioners. On the other hand its worth noting how consistently it was possible to wrestle from that range if someone chose to do so & how consistently the wrestling came to be the determining factor in those fights were it was employed. That suggest to me that either wrestling is an inevitable & central part of fighting sword & shield (in a rules free context) or that the SCA & similar organizations are missing the essential skill of being able to forcefully maintain distance so as to avoid coming to grips.

    Also, & I've said this before, fighting sword & shield when wearing plate just makes people look silly.
  7. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 12:59pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape View Post
    First of all its important to note that ARMA is not HEMA in the same way that squares are not all rectangles. ARMA is one HEMA group that happens to put out a fair amount of video material featuring fighters of good quality. So, while ARMA videos are being used for the sake of availability & convenience, not all HEMA enthusiasts on this forum are ARMA member. I myself am not.
    I guess it's the same thing with us Westerners - all Chinese people look the same (and of course we look the same to them).


    Also, & I've said this before, fighting sword & shield when wearing plate just makes people look silly.
    Yeah, but if you've seen Excalibur (1980), you know it's cool. ESPECIALLY if your armor is all shiny.

    By they way, IIRC there was a small minority of plate users who regularly used shields- Serbian knights still used them because of Turkish bowfire. Of course, this comes out of an Osprey book, so I don't know how reliable it is.
  8. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 2:29pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    Yeah, You've said it so many times I'm starting to wonder about your athletic ability. I've fought with and used swords and I never found the transition from waster to sword all that life changing. But I guess some of us were born with more physical talent than others.
    Its not about athleticism. Steel blunts arent significantly different in balance or weight from wood or plastic wasters. It takes no more strength or speed to handle one then another, but each flexes & slides differently leading to substantially different responses in the bind. Its a matter of fhlen.
  9. Thunderstick is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odysseus_dallas View Post
    You just said you've never been in a real fight with a sword. So I take it that all your "skill" comes from training and bouting in the SCA, so I'll take such claims with a grain of salt. Or several.

    And you can keep making claims all day long until you prove them, as you yourself said. So in the meantime, stick to the technical facts, or post videos of your "fighting", at the very least.

    What I meant was that I had never been in an actual to the death duel with real sharpened swords....



    Info on that? Never heard of that before.
    Theres heavy schlager and side sword.
  10. odysseus_dallas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 3:10pm


     Style: ARMA Scholar, Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstick View Post
    Theres heavy schlager and side sword.
    These were already mentioned by captainzorikh. In any case, they only cover a small portion of Rennaissance Martial Arts. Longsword, the foundation of fencing, seems to be absent.

    Though I'd like to know what rules they fight under. Do they drop to the knees too when hit on the thigh?

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