SCA Combat

**captainzorikh** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 6:29am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

SCA is not a martial art, never has been and never will be. At best it could be defined as a sport.

It's looks fun and everyone is enjoying themselves. Which is fine but don't confuse that with Martial Training. It's like comparing paintball to joining the marines.

All right then, the gauntlet has been thrown. Let's get this party started!

Define "Martial Art."

Define "Martial Training."

And then tell me what it is about SCA combat that makes it different.

Also tell me if you see anything that makes it similar.

Let's see if we can truly compare and contrast SCA combat with "Martial Arts" and SCA combat training with "Martial Training."

YouTube- Duke U pt 6

**captainzorikh** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 6:47am

Originally Posted by thorthe power

Thanks for the info!! Time to start saving...actually doesn't sound to expensive and I have friends that can help get me started with gear...I'll keep you posted. Maybe I can be a little ready by Pennsic and only get beat up a little:-)

That's awesome! Most SCA groups I know of have friendly and helpful people that will do whatever it takes to get you on the field.

You know, of course, that before you can fight in battle or tourney you have to get "authorized," basically a "driver's test" to make sure you are not a danger to yourself or anyone else on the field, and it has to be done a certain amount of time before Pennsic if you want to fight there. Then you will get a "Fighter's Authorization Card" that will allow you to fight with the specific weapon(s) you are authorized in.

Good luck! Soon you will be here...

YouTube- SCA Combat Types

**Polar Bear** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 7:53am

Martial Art= "art that was once or is currently used in human conflict."

Martial Training = "training in the above art"

Oh an the guy in the video doesn't understand fencing. He talks about techinque but he never once mentions the underlying principles which makes this techniques work. He is not demonstrating body alignment, controlling the centreline or triangular entry. While he is trying to base his sword on something like George silver or William Hope, without understanding the principles you end up with what you get in SCA. i.e. a sport where people whack each other in armour with padded sticks for fun.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 7:59am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

SCA is not a martial art, never has been and never will be. At best it could be defined as a sport.

The SCA is neither a Martial Art nor a Martial Sport. The SCA is a big organization which, among other things, includes at least two (or three, depending) major rule sets [and countless minor/local] defining a sport with the intent of recreating Medieval combat [insert the attendant and legitimate complaints about its origin, lack of initial scholarship, restrictive rule sets, etc.]

Separate and apart from SCA Heavy/Light/Pen./Local-Rules Combat, there is actually a good bit of real scholarship going on currently in the SCA on the topic of Ye Arts Marshal ranging from pre-Medieval up through Renaissance. There are also a good number of "real martial artists" from other, non-WMA, styles who also participate in SCA.

So, before either of you two throw the gauntlet any further you might what to clarify exactly what you're fighting about. Is it SCA rules Heavy Combat or something else?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Polar Bear** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 8:45am

Originally Posted by lklawson

Separate and apart from SCA Heavy/Light/Pen./Local-Rules Combat, there is actually a good bit of real scholarship going on currently in the SCA on the topic of Ye Arts Marshal ranging from pre-Medieval up through Renaissance.

Prove it or it didn't happen.

**captainzorikh** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 10:26am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Prove it or it didn't happen.

The easiest way to prove that there is research going on in the SCA regarding historical combat is to go to Pennsic and look at the seminars being taught and tournaments being held by Brian Price, the Company of St. George, and folks like him

Done.

YouTube- Combat of the 30 - Part1 - Pennsic 37 2008

YouTube- Brian R. Price's Techniques Of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century.

**Polar Bear** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 10:45am

Originally Posted by captainzorikh

The easiest way to prove that there is research going on in the SCA regarding historical combat is to go to Pennsic and look at the seminars being taught and tournaments being held by Brian Price, the Company of St. George, and folks like him

Done.

Umm just because you're running stuff saying it's research doesn't make it so. And from the videos you linked I nearly fainted with laughter that this is considered a plus in your argument. The masses running about whacking people with spong pole arms is serious research. My god it's worse than I thought not better.

**captainzorikh** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 10:54am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Martial Art= "art that was once or is currently used in human conflict."

Martial Training = "training in the above art"

Oh an the guy in the video doesn't understand fencing. He talks about techinque but he never once mentions the underlying principles which makes this techniques work. He is not demonstrating body alignment, controlling the centreline or triangular entry. While he is trying to base his sword on something like George silver or William Hope, without understanding the principles you end up with what you get in SCA. i.e. a sport where people whack each other in armour with padded sticks for fun.

Nice broad definitions which could include almost everything or almost nothing, depending on how you look at it. I'm afraid you are going to have to be a bit more specific about what "martial arts" are martial arts under that definition. Here's a few things that come to my mind:

Does learning how to grab, throw, and choke someone wearing a modern, sport-specific interpretation of Okinawan peasant garb fit into your definition?

When in the history of human conflict did anyone do technically perfect moves on an empty stage with paper-thin swords?

Is there no form of wrestling or grappling that you would consider a martial art, if they don't allow striking?

Is there any striking art that would count as a martial art, when so many real fights go to the ground?

And yet, it seems to me that there are many, many pictures and stories of people fighting with swords and shields, spears, polearms, even sticks of various lengths and widths. Heck, if one person ever picked up a trash can lid and a pool cue in a bar fight, and another guy picked up a broomstick, presto-bango, you got human conflict that the SCA makes an art of right there.

And I know of no form of anything that calls itself a martial art that involves numbers of people on a battlefield (maybe I'm just limited in my experience, help me out here someone), and yet, didn't some ancient Chinese guy write a book called "The Art of War"?

Please be more specific about how broad or narrow your definition is. Use specific examples so I can know what makes something a martial art in the way that the SCA is not.

And the guy was not teaching a beginning seminar about fencing, he was discussing the importance of drilling to perfect technique and build reflexes.

And the sticks are most often not padded.

**captainzorikh** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 11:35am

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Umm just because you're running stuff saying it's research doesn't make it so. And from the videos you linked I nearly fainted with laughter that this is considered a plus in your argument. The masses running about whacking people with spong pole arms is serious research. My god it's worse than I thought not better.

Then I refer you to the "more info" in the youTube page:

"The Combat of the 30 is a deed of arms in the SCA that takes place at Pennsic war on the Sunday of War week. The rules of the 30 are different than those of normal SCA combat to account for plate armor. The goal is to capture opponents and to be paid a ransom for their release as was common in the Middle Ages.

"The Combat of the Thirty (March 27, 1351) was an episode in the struggle for the succession to the Duchy of Brittany. It was fought between thirty champions, knights and squires on each side, in a challenge issued by Jean de Beaumanoir, a captain of Charles of Blois supported by the king of France, to Robert Bramborough, a captain of Jean de Montfort supported by the king of England."

I also invite you to visit their website http://www.scholasaintgeorge.org/ Yes, they exist outside the SCA as well, but they find that the SCA gives them a place where they can put their research into practice.

This tourney is not the research itself, but just one of the attempts to put the research into practice. Take a look at the book review in the other video. Say what you want about the reviewer, but you don't publish books like that without doing a little bit of work.

I also encourage you to take a closer look at the combat. The fighters are picking their shots, rather than mindlessly bashing. They are using teamwork and tactics to seek advantage and avoid engagement when at a disadvantage.

And those polearms are not sponges. In most cases the heads are made of leather or hard rubber. Those helmets are not just for show.

YouTube- Battle of 30 part 1

**captainzorikh** · Posted On: 3/04/2010 11:41am

[quote=lklawson;2323768]The SCA is neither a Martial Art nor a Martial Sport. The SCA is a big organization which, among other things, includes at least two (or three, depending) major rule sets [and countless minor/local] defining a sport with the intent of recreating Medieval combat [insert the attendant and legitimate complaints about its origin, lack of initial scholarship, restrictive rule sets, etc.]

Thanks for the technical definition. I suppose the real question then is: Can a martial art exist under the rules and conventions of combat of the SCA?

It's early in the day yet, and we have all our lives to quibble.