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  1. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 2:26am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is one of many examples of how odd things can get in then academic world and what the "amateurs" are contesting: http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000319.html
  2. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 12:16am


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So are you still maintaining you aren't a troll, Kwan Dao? What is the point of this thread other than to pull someone's life work into the mud and make people think you're an idiot? Generally, a discussion is not a single set of comments, idiot.
  3. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 1:57am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blossfechter View Post
    So are you still maintaining you aren't a troll, Kwan Dao? What is the point of this thread other than to pull someone's life work into the mud and make people think you're an idiot? Generally, a discussion is not a single set of comments, idiot.
    Care to explain whose livelong work I would have pulled into the mud? Did you read my posts at all?
  4. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 2:27am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape View Post
    I think the acceptance of amatuer sources is a result of the fact that there are few credentialed academic sources that take into account those factors relevant to the understanding of the historical European martial arts. I would suggest this metaphor: there are great tailors & clothing manufacturers who are extensively trained & make quality products, but have no direct experience with grappling arts. If you asked them what makes a good gi, or kurtka, they probably wouldn't know & wouldn't care. If you ask your Sambo coach, the chances are he could tell you what you need to look for in terms of cut & material even though he never learned to sow.
    An interesting post. Especially if you think your example a bit further.

    Yes, my sambo coach does know what makes a good kurtka (which is why we directly import them from a producer in Russia). But that knowledge would not allow him to produce one. Does he know what the "good" material is actually called? What would he tell a cloth-vendor if he were to buy material for a kurtka? If he would be asked about technicalities of the trade like weaving patterns, the exact type of "Garn" (sorry do not know the english terms) used for "Kette" and "Schuss"?

    How about cutting the material and sewing it?

    To do that you need specialist knowledge. So to actually make a good working kurtka, the two (trainer and tailor) would have to work together.

    I think the same goes for historical martial arts. I am not saying it is easy to find ways of cooperation (nor is the academic side overly enthusiastic about doing so). But without cooperation neither side will produce usable results imho.

    This vid is a good example (you can also look at the cold-steel cutting vids and come to the same conclusions):

    YouTube- ARMA Test Cutting-Cleaving a Deer Carcass

    Test cutting might actually help discard some of the myths surrounding swords. But things like this will allways be easily discarded by the scientifc community. On the basis that the testers did not follow a single rule of research.

    What does cutting the skinned carcass of a deer tell us about the capabilities of a sword in battle? Or to refer to the cold steel ones: What does the ability of a modern day broadsword to cut through plastic-bottles full of water, or boneless chunks of meat, tell us? Nothing that could be held up as a scientific result (yes, I know they do not aim to present scientific results anyhow - I am using them as examples because they are easily available).

    Even worse, the video is edited to bring the viewer to false assumptions. The first strike in the vid is actually the last. On second view one finds out that it took at least three wildly swinging, uncontrolled "hammer-thrower" blows to cut the carcass.
  5. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 2:48am


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nope. Sorry.


    I'm kidding. Of course I did; I was trolling you. More or less, you said that because he didn't have a degree his work is not worth using as a reference. Am I wrong?

    The funny thing about that is one of the ways to date swords is to examine the style of handle, pommel, blade type, and guard in existing art work of the time. Granted, there are many other ways as well, but some are more prone to error. For example, if there are numerous examples of a particular looking sword type shown only during one period in existing artwork, then you can fairly confidently say the time period the sword of that type existed.

    It doesn't require any scientific degree for that method. However, it does require an eye for art. And further, he regularly used people with degrees to back up his work to make sure he wasn't coming to conclusions out of nowhere.

    He also looked at the broader scope of how the weapons changed as armor and combat changed. He attempted to catalog those changes alongside the 'fashionable' changes depicted.

    I personally think Oakeshott called himself an amateur out of humility and to prevent snobby academics from calling him out like you are now. If you never claim to be an expert, people leave you alone because you aren't stepping on their toes. Oakeshott more or less wanted the research to be done and knowledge of Europe's real history be restored to the public eye instead of the idea of Middle Age combat being lacking in skill, technology, and relying only on brute strength. That was the commonly held belief at the time... and still is to a large number of people.

    The end of the 19th century involved a movement in Nordic nationalism. Right thereafter, some of Viking sword typologies were made. I don't think it's a coincidence. The funding was available for people to research it because it was popular. Oakeshott took it upon himself to do the same thing for a large number of Europe's other sword types not long thereafter. But instead of focusing on the aesthetics of the weapons, he tried to look at them functionally instead of as pieces of some type of macabre art. He changed how people looked at swords in academic circles because of the research he did while technically an amateur. Anyone knowledgeable of European weapons can clearly see he was anything but, if one takes the time to analyze his work or legacy.



    Outside of all of that, what exactly do you think is wrong with his typology specifically ? Give examples of errors you see...
    Last edited by blossfechter; 3/06/2010 3:02am at .
  6. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 2:53am


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Test cutting might actually help discard some of the myths surrounding swords. But things like this will allways be easily discarded by the scientifc community. On the basis that the testers did not follow a single rule of research.
    I don't think anyone is claiming test cutting on youtube is scientific.
  7. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 3:13am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blossfechter
    I don't think anyone is claiming test cutting on youtube is scientific.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    (yes, I know they do not aim to present scientific results anyhow - I am using them as examples because they are easily available).
    :qgaraduat

    There have been more reasonable attempts. But from a scientific standpoint, afaik they all lacked in regards to documentation and methodology. Thus they are easily discarded without discussion. Even though their results may have been entirely correct. Thats the real pity.

    This is exactly why I think that, to change anything substantially, it would be necessary to bring all the amateur research done to another level. Either by collaboration or by acquiring the necessary knowledge and certification oneself.
  8. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/06/2010 4:01am


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think the scientific testing you want will be done anytime soon. There is no funding for established scientists to waste their time doing this. Further, I think it's stupid to disregard anything not done by purely scientific means.

    All of society's advancements were not made with the scientific method. Some things were done in some guy's basement... or equivalent thereof.



    You are still missing the point though. None of Oakeshott's work absolutely must be scientific. Someone proficient in history would have a easier time cataloging weapons than a scientist. That's all he did...catalog weapons by type. You don't really need scientific tests for that. There's enough evidence outside of science to date weapons. It's similar to archeology in that you don't have to carbon date everything to know it's age. Carbon dating things may help to prove your findings, but there are many things accepted as fact that haven't been dated by such methods because of all the other evidence at hand.
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