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  1. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 11:59am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    True, sharply tapering longswords are better at piercing armour, especially in halbschwert. I basically agree with all that you said above, but what I am suggesting is that against non-armoured opponents a spatulated point may be better for thrusting than a tapering point, since it doesn't pierce quite as deeply. Once again, pure speculation, but I have heard it mentioned that a tapering longsword easily buries itself deeply and can get stuck against the vertebrae. Of course you can get it loose, but in a melee, you may loose valuable time.

    Regarding cutting with tapering swords, there is a test on MyArmoury where a tapering sword surprisingly cut better than certain spatulated swords. This was of course quite opposite of what most had expected. However, it required a different cutting technique where you cut with the point instead of the cop.

    The stiff blade means that it doesn't flex to any noticable effect. The fullered spatulated blade on the other hand, flexed considerably when cutting with the cop, which probably made it cut less well.

    So, it may be just a bit more complex than one initially thinks, when looking at ridged and tapered "thrusting" swords compared to fullered and spatulated "cutting" swords.

    Having a bbq with swords sounds like fun! Last time I had a party involving swords I managed to kill my living room ceiling lamp. Obviously, my wife was less than impressed... :)
  2. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 12:03pm


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Honestly, what is it with all those self-declared hobby experts in english speaking countries? Don't you have universities with actual scientists?

    Mr Oakeshott did not have any degree in history, archeology or other related sciences according to this. "Spent time in museums examining medieval swords"? Dear gods, really?

    I am starting to wonder how much of the research and knowledge in HEMA/ARMA/whatever circles is based on dubious sources like this?
    I honestly don't even know what to say to you. The Oakeshott Typology is the most well regarded study of European weaponry that exists. Even he says it isn't perfect, but I think that is due to the modern mind trying to classify things in terms of modern thinking. Perfect mass production where every item off the line is the same did not happen then. Granted, they did mass produce swords, but it was by hand and per a customer's design. Given that, any system will be flawed.

    If you can't accept something so widely regarded as a base line for European weaponry, even given further research is needed, then I doubt we'd ever have anything to talk about. My current knowledge is only so high because I'm standing on the shoulders on those before me. Even reading a simple manual for techniques would be impossible without others. That means even *gasp* non-scientists. The academic world has next to zero interest in western martial arts for the sake of the martial art itself. They only care about the bigger picture of how things relate to the cultural flow of history.

    Anyway, I'm off to practice swinging the 20 lbs. swords the academics told us about since the 19th century. They must be right; they were experts with degrees.
  3. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 12:18pm


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    True, sharply tapering longswords are better at piercing armour, especially in halbschwert. I basically agree with all that you said above, but what I am suggesting is that against non-armoured opponents a spatulated point may be better for thrusting than a tapering point, since it doesn't pierce quite as deeply. Once again, pure speculation, but I have heard it mentioned that a tapering longsword easily buries itself deeply and can get stuck against the vertebrae. Of course you can get it loose, but in a melee, you may loose valuable time.
    No sword is good at piercing armor. In harnischfechten (fighting in armor) you go for the gaps in protection like armpits (even though mail may be there), palms of the hands, under the gorget, crotch (depending on the armor), etc.

    I think the problem of thrusting too deeply is solved by not extending so far. It's in your best interest anyway. Unless you hit anything extremely vital, the person you just hit is still hopped up on adrenaline with a weapon, and they will be alive for a bit. I'm sure they aren't happy. If you land a thrust, you must recover to a guard or disengage. Of course, nothing in a melee happens in an orderly fashion.

    Point being, you can't assume a thrust will kill someone. There's many accounts of duels where each man was stabbed numerous times and kept fighting. Or look at stabbing victims in modern life. There have been guys stabbed literally 40 times and still fighting. Granted, the story I'm thinking of is in prison, and the knife wasn't huge. Still, you get the point (pun intended) :icon_thum.
  4. u1ysses is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 12:40pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know kwan_dao - you're an idiot. I suggest ritual suicide.

    First of all, I'm ABD in a PhD student in Anthropology, specifically focusing on European archaeology. That's what makes this so hilarious:

    Mr Oakeshott did not have any degree in history, archeology or other related sciences according to this. "Spent time in museums examining medieval swords"? Dear gods, really?

    I am starting to wonder how much of the research and knowledge in HEMA/ARMA/whatever circles is based on dubious sources like this?
    What exactly do you think archaeological typologists do to get their degrees, fucktard?

    You do realize that while far from perfect, Oakeshott's work is on par with many contemporary archaeologists and is actually cited now and then by archaeologists and classicists and historians whose names are followed by 'PhD,' yes?

    You do realize you will find archaeologists with PhD's repeating bullshit about historic and prehistoric weapons because they have never handled one and don't have the slightest idea of how to use it, or assess it's properties, yes? The literature is full of this.
  5. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 12:49pm


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blossfechter View Post
    No sword is good at piercing armor. In harnischfechten (fighting in armor) you go for the gaps in protection like armpits (even though mail may be there), palms of the hands, under the gorget, crotch (depending on the armor), etc.

    I think the problem of thrusting too deeply is solved by not extending so far. It's in your best interest anyway. Unless you hit anything extremely vital, the person you just hit is still hopped up on adrenaline with a weapon, and they will be alive for a bit. I'm sure they aren't happy. If you land a thrust, you must recover to a guard or disengage. Of course, nothing in a melee happens in an orderly fashion.

    Point being, you can't assume a thrust will kill someone. There's many accounts of duels where each man was stabbed numerous times and kept fighting. Or look at stabbing victims in modern life. There have been guys stabbed literally 40 times and still fighting. Granted, the story I'm thinking of is in prison, and the knife wasn't huge. Still, you get the point (pun intended) :icon_thum.
    Actually, I practice Hema so I know full well about harnischfechten and halbschwert. :)
    However, my impression is that almost half the halbschwert techniques involve wrestling and trapping your opponent so you can kill him off on the ground. :)

    And although I agree that control is vital when thrusting, I am just relating a theory I heard. It may well be wrong, but as I said, maybe spatulated points are better for thrusting at soft targets? It is not so much a question of a "killing" thrust as it is a question of being able to continue fighting with as little hindrance as possible.

    The discussion on cuts vs thrust is a very old one, when focusing on effectiveness, just look at sabres and how the use has varied. I am sure we can get a few comments here on that. :)
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 2/26/2010 1:00pm at .
  6. blossfechter is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 1:03pm


     Style: German Longsword, HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    Actually, I practice Hema so I know full well about harnischfechten and halbschwert. However, my impression is that almost half the halbschwert techniques involve wrestling and trapping your opponent so you can kill him off on the ground. :)
    Yes, I can agree with part of this. However, it's much easier to kill someone in armor on the ground with a dagger than at half sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    And although I agree that control is vital when thrusting, I am just relating a theory I heard. It may well be wrong, but as I said, maybe spatulated points are better for thrusting at soft targets? It is not so much a question of a "killing" thrust as it is a question of being able to continue fighting with as little hindrance as possible.
    Spatulated points are better damage-wise on soft targets ...mades a wider hole with sharper edges to widen it further on the way out. I never disagreed here. I have no idea as to which point would dislodge out of a spine better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    The discussion on cuts vs thrust is a very old one, when focusing on effectiveness, just look at sabres and how the use has varied. I am sure we can get a few comments here on that. :)
    Here we go. Kill me now.:emo:
  7. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 1:16pm


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hehe, I have no interest in discuss in sabres and cut/thrust either. It's already been done extensively here. It's a complex issue though. :)

    And I agree about the dagger on the ground, but it appears to me as if a lot of the halbschwert techniques aim for just that, trapping and wrestling your opponent to the ground and finish him off, usually with a dagger.

    I guess we are not disagreeing about the shape and characteristics of points then. The point doesn't really matter when dislodging. It only matters on the way "in" where a spatulated point doesn't go as deeply without much more force. This can certainly matter, for instance when an opponent comes at you and there are multiple opponents.

    Oh, and as a sidenote, there certainly were armour piercing swords, like the estoc and the panzerstecher which is a pretty amazing "sword":



    And, even the estoc probably most commonly pierced the seems between armour plates, rather than piercing the plates themselves. But that's a completely different topic. ;)
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 2/26/2010 1:54pm at .
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 2:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And then there are these very curious beasties ...





    As near as I can make out, this type of crowbar/giant rondel dagger/short lance was nicknamed Dreiecher ("triangle"), presumably because it had a triangular cross-section. Seems to have been optimized for armored combat in the context of judicial duels. I made some facsimiles years and years ago - they're wicked weapons as the whole fight happens at half-sword range, a combination of power thrusts and pommel smashes with binding and grappling.
  9. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 5:28pm


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Those are new to me... :) But there really are so many peculiar weapons that fall in between the classifications, like the maciejowski choppers and other weird "falcions",





    also various forms of proto-sabers, these dreiechers, Swedish staff swords, and this crooked thing below, that I really have no idea what I am looking at. :)

    Last edited by Grimnir69; 2/26/2010 5:39pm at .
  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2010 7:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, neat pics. That last one looks like an Indonesian kuku macan:

    or a Filipino ginunting:
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