Private classes

**DdlR** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 3:52pm

In the original Bartitsu Club (London, circa 1900) E.W. Barton-Wright had an unusual policy that required new students to take a certain number of private lessons before being allowed to join in the group classes.

I've taught private classes at MA conferences in the past and I can see certain advantages in following Barton-Wright's scheme, both commercially and in terms of actual training value for students. Does anyone have experience with similar systems, either as students or instructors, or did that idea die out?

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:19pm

I dunno. Sounds kind of like Barton Wright was pioneering the McDojo. There was a Toshindo school in my old town that did the same thing.

**pauli** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:27pm

under normal circumstances, i've found there's more to be gained (for everybody involved) by including them in the regular class, but pairing them off with a senior student, and keeping an eye on them.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:29pm

Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw

I dunno. Sounds kind of like Barton Wright was pioneering the McDojo. There was a Toshindo school in my old town that did the same thing.

The Bartitsu Club was partly based on the old London gentleman's club system, so prospective members had to be approved by a committee before they were allowed to join, etc. B-W was kind of pioneering the whole concept of a multi-styles self defense club in the English-speaking world.

Toshindo is Stephen Hayes' post-ninjutsu initiative, right?

I'm interested in the pros and cons of the "private lessons before group classes" scheme, both from the student's and instructor's points of view.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:33pm

Originally Posted by pauli

under normal circumstances, i've found there's more to be gained (for everybody involved) by including them in the regular class, but pairing them off with a senior student, and keeping an eye on them.

For the sake of argument, what's to be gained that way? The newbie gets one-on-one instruction, but not from the main instructor; the senior student may or may not be a good teacher, likewise may or may not want to be paired with a beginner.

**pauli** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:44pm

it sort of relies on the instructor to know the strengths, weaknesses, and personalities of his students, and to not pair nubs up with jerks (i can't remember the last time i trained with an experienced practitioner of any style that didn't love to share with someone new), but if either of those are a problem... the school's fucked anyway.

further, a quality instructor is teaching his senior students how to teach as a matter of course, and this is part of it. as the saying goes, the teacher usually learns more than the student - there is a very real benefit for the senior student in walking a new guy through his paces, helping him understand whatever technique is being taught at the moment, or just teaching him the basics.

the new guy is benefiting by having two sets of eyes on him; if the senior student is having trouble, the instructor is watching, ready to step in. also, in my experience, people generally find working with a student to be less intimidating than working directly with the head dude. he also gets to experience the flow of class around him, which should be more reassuring (people training hard and having fun, he's not the awkward center of attention) than a sterile private lesson on empty mats.

also, the rest of the class benefits by not having the instructor's time tied up with every random person who wanders through, signs up, and disappears after two weeks.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:51pm

Here's what happens with private lessons and Mcdojos- in order to include private lessons into the training of lots of people, you have to recruit lots of instructors, so now you have to have people teach without as much as experience as they probably should. The head guy ends up "managing" his instructors and tends to become more of a businessman than a martial artist as he fades into the background (but his reputation as a badass continues). I don't think private lessons are necessarily a bad thing at all. There's a list of people I'd be more than happy to pay for some private lessons in specific things if I were going on a trip anytime soon.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:54pm

All good points, thanks. Barton-Wright's school was full-time, so I'm assuming he would have scheduled the private classes so they didn't interfere with the group sessions.

Unfortunately, we know almost nothing about the nature of his private classes except that they may have involved physical culture (exercise) training, so I'm trying to figure out how they might have fit in to the overall operation of the school, for good or ill.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 4:55pm

As far as group classes, if you're learning kata or something it might help to have it taught privately, but if you're learning a skill that involves another person (which I think are far more useful than almost every pattern in the air you could do), you'll need a partner, and it can be awkward to teach something like that when you are the partner. I feel that small groups are the best setting for learning martial arts.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 2/24/2010 5:00pm

What O have seen for newbies is that the instructor lets a senior belt teach the class while he shows the newbie the basics.

Frankly I think it's a safety issue.

I.E. Here's how you break fall, and such.

Also at the time Barton probably did it know one would have much idea what Japanesse based MA looked like.

Now people do.

So in short

It depends