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  1. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2010 9:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    More thoughts about firearms home defense

    So, today I had some more thoughts about hypothetical firearms home defense. Just some thoughts. Tell me if they're sensible or not.

    *At close distances, if two people try to shoot each other, won't the most likely outcome be that both people shoot each other at the same time? If that is true, doesn't that mean that ballistic armor is just as important as a gun is to a home defense plan?

    *Nobody usually states this, but if over-penetration is such a concern in home-defense, wouldn't the ideal home defense plan whenever possible have the defender at the top of the stairs in the house so that he can shoot downwards towards the ground when engaging? Why do posters and advertisements always show someone hiding behind their bed, which won't stop bullets?

    *If you're shooting downwards, wouldn't a .30 cal rifle be superior to a shotgun? The .30 cal rifle would do much better against armor and in many cases you'd have a larger magazine and speedier reloads. If you had a .30 cal rifle loaded with JHPs, would those overpenetrate if you shot someone with them?

    *It's probably easier/more common to mount a bayonet on a 30 caliber rifle than on a shotgun, for in case you can't clear a malfunction or something. Another reason to use the rifle, I'd think.

    *Burglary and theft of firearms should always be a concern. What if you had an old-looking surplus .30 cal rifle or carbine in your bedroom that was your home defense gun? Maybe it wouldn't look attractive to thieves. Would a burglar steal a M1 Garand or SKS carbine? I imagine you could nevertheless use either one of those with a bayonet to shoot downwards at a home invader if you were home when they came calling.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  2. Gopu is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2010 9:47pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Personally I try not to think about it that much. There's a lot of what-ifs, but the situation is so unlikely to begin with that I think just having a gun makes all the difference. Jams are something to worry about when you're in the field as a soldier. A person could waste their whole life away thinking about what-ifs for rare scenarios.

    Most gun owners own more than one gun, so just keep two guns by your bed or a gun and a sword/knife. Hang a bullet proof vest on a peg if you've got one too. It theoretically makes a difference but realistically it doesn't IMO.

    Not trying to derail your topic, just giving my input that specifics in extremely rare scenarios don't matter much to me.
  3. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2010 10:59pm

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    Wow a lot goes through your head. You want a hold up plan against a siege? I have not heard of too many home invations where the perps wear body armor.
  4. ceeb is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2010 11:18pm

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     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    America is fucked. I have a combat knife I keep on my night stand. We don't really have home invasion all that much here.
  5. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2010 11:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceeb View Post
    America is fucked. I have a combat knife I keep on my night stand. We don't really have home invasion all that much here.
    No burglar in the U.S. who's in his right mind breaks into a home with someone there unless he's sure the homeowner doesn't have a gun.

    Most burglars here make a point to break into homes with no one home.

    Lastly, we have a fairly low burglary rate except in low income and adjacent areas.
  6. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2010 12:02am


     Style: slackerjitsu

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    Duuuuude, You are NOT supposed to drink the Kool-Aid.
  7. Madgrenade is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2010 11:30am


     Style: Tiger Crane combination

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    Most burglars everywhere try and break in while no-ones home. Thats what makes it burglary. Otherwise, its robbery. Unless it's the middle the night and you're really quiet. Then its still a burglary. Burglars are sly. Robbers aren't.

    "Low income and adjacent areas..." Love the euphamism. **** hole will do fine.
  8. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2010 3:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll give this a shot:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    So, today I had some more thoughts about hypothetical firearms home defense. Just some thoughts. Tell me if they're sensible or not.

    *At close distances, if two people try to shoot each other, won't the most likely outcome be that both people shoot each other at the same time? If that is true, doesn't that mean that ballistic armor is just as important as a gun is to a home defense plan?
    Cover...any kind of cover is better then no cover...as long as you understand that what you are hiding behind may not truly save your bacon. Yes, bullets can go through walls, furniture, etc, but the less your attacker can see of you, the better you are.

    *Nobody usually states this, but if over-penetration is such a concern in home-defense, wouldn't the ideal home defense plan whenever possible have the defender at the top of the stairs in the house so that he can shoot downwards towards the ground when engaging? Why do posters and advertisements always show someone hiding behind their bed, which won't stop bullets?
    *If you're shooting downwards, wouldn't a .30 cal rifle be superior to a shotgun? The .30 cal rifle would do much better against armor and in many cases you'd have a larger magazine and speedier reloads. If you had a .30 cal rifle loaded with JHPs, would those over-penetrate if you shot someone with them?
    Most people don't have a top of the stairs. I live in an apartment. Even those who live in homes may not have stairs because it is a one floor home. This goes back to my first response as well. Any type of cover is better than no cover. This also goes to the fact that if I can't shoot downward, I have to shot at you. And you get to the over-penetration issue. I don't want to stop a home invader and kill my neighbor in the process. The .308 is a .30 cal round. Remember, the military uses that round (the NATA 7.62) for sniping people at long ranges. Do you really want to be using that round in your apartment complex???

    Shotguns give you less penetration and a larger room for error when aiming. Mind you, they don't create the mythical wall of death but you can be off a little bit and still get a lot of buck into a target. With a rifle, if you are off target, you are off target and that round will keep going until something stops it. Hopefully, not your neighbor or passer-by.

    Shotguns also provide you with the versatility you need in case you want to go with a solid round. You can get a slug or even a rifled slug. You get a big round (much bigger than a .30 cal, try around .70 cal by reference) that you can deploy along with shot shells. That's something you can't really get with a rifle.

    *It's probably easier/more common to mount a bayonet on a 30 caliber rifle than on a shotgun, for in case you can't clear a malfunction or something. Another reason to use the rifle, I'd think.
    Personally, I'd rather have my shotgun and if that fails, my handgun. Also, remember that a shotgun/rifle are long weapons. Adding a knife to the end is only going to make it longer and less maneuverable. Unless you have clear open spaces in every aspect of your living quarters, this wouldn't be the best idea. Its one of the reasons why those tasked with clearing homes and urban environments use short barreled weapons.

    *Burglary and theft of firearms should always be a concern. What if you had an old-looking surplus .30 cal rifle or carbine in your bedroom that was your home defense gun? Maybe it wouldn't look attractive to thieves. Would a burglar steal a M1 Garand or SKS carbine? I imagine you could nevertheless use either one of those with a bayonet to shoot downwards at a home invader if you were home when they came calling.
    Well, when not at home, most people lock their stuff up in a gun safe. Something of reasonable size and weight. It won't keep someone from stealing it but it will deter most. Your average Joe Burglar trying to still your stuff won't be trying to lug around your gun safe. He want try to go for high dollar portable items like digital electronics, jewelry, etc. Again, a gun safe won't prevent, but it will deter.

    Now there are those who have guns hidden all around their home in case of a break-in. For those, if the burglar finds them, yes, he could potentially take them. You could lock them all down to something while gone or put them away and take them out every time you leave and come back. Not sure what the best approach for that would be.
  9. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2010 4:32pm

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     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    So, today I had some more thoughts about hypothetical firearms home defense. Just some thoughts. Tell me if they're sensible or not.

    *At close distances, if two people try to shoot each other, won't the most likely outcome be that both people shoot each other at the same time? If that is true, doesn't that mean that ballistic armor is just as important as a gun is to a home defense plan?
    It's possible. But a little concealment, and some good ol' strategic thinking could save you the trouble of a face off. If you rush into a gunfight without those considerations, you probably deserve the outcome you get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    *Nobody usually states this, but if over-penetration is such a concern in home-defense, wouldn't the ideal home defense plan whenever possible have the defender at the top of the stairs in the house so that he can shoot downwards towards the ground when engaging? Why do posters and advertisements always show someone hiding behind their bed, which won't stop bullets?
    Depends on the bullets. Also, it's better to present a smaller target. Make the bad guy take longer to find you. That fraction of a second delay is more than enough to throw lead at them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    *If you're shooting downwards, wouldn't a .30 cal rifle be superior to a shotgun? The .30 cal rifle would do much better against armor and in many cases you'd have a larger magazine and speedier reloads. If you had a .30 cal rifle loaded with JHPs, would those overpenetrate if you shot someone with them?
    Which .30 cal rifle are you talking about? In a home? You'd have to be a reckless idiot to use a full power rifle round like 30-06 or .308. Yeah buddy, here's my .300 winchester magnum, home defense gun. It's for shooting people at the end of my 500 yard hallway. Where do you live? The palace of Versailles?

    A 30-30, or m1 carbine, or Ak may be suitable with hollow points or frangibles, but none of those are ideal. Simply the lower end of the .30 envelope for power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    *It's probably easier/more common to mount a bayonet on a 30 caliber rifle than on a shotgun, for in case you can't clear a malfunction or something. Another reason to use the rifle, I'd think.
    Buy a Garand, mount a bayonet, and practice slicing the pie around corners in your apartment with it. You will answer your own question. My shotgun has a bayo, but it's %50 psychological warfare. That **** is fucking terrifying in apearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    *Burglary and theft of firearms should always be a concern. What if you had an old-looking surplus .30 cal rifle or carbine in your bedroom that was your home defense gun? Maybe it wouldn't look attractive to thieves. Would a burglar steal a M1 Garand or SKS carbine? I imagine you could nevertheless use either one of those with a bayonet to shoot downwards at a home invader if you were home when they came calling.
    Yes, thieves will steal any of those. And then they will happily buba the **** out of them, and commit crimes with them. Protect your weapons bro!

    Honestly, the ubiquitous 12 gauge shot gun is the tool of choice for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is versatility of ammo. Including low power "tactical" loadings for slug and buck, that will not penetrate to your neighbors down the block, and still destroy anybody in between your muzzle, and the nearest sheet of drywall.

    Play safe bud, and don't shoot your .308 Saiga ion the house!:icon_roll
  10. moli is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2010 10:39pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I keep trying to convince myself that a M-1 Carbine will be good for home defense. With hollow points and a 30 round magazine it would not be bad, but realistically I'm just looking for an excuse to buy a cool gun.
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