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  1. Jolly_Roger is offline

    Lord Of the Rhymes

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    1,918

    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 2:37am


     Style: Pimpin/Tango-thanks Xango

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great post, Pat!
    Thanks!
    Canuckyokushin:

    These women can do back flips right over my head and still land on there feet .GRrrrrrrr!

    feedback:

    THAT'S NOTHING, I USED TO KNOW SOME 12 YEAR-OLDS WHO COULD FIT INSIDE A SUITCASE AND STAY ALIVE FOR 7 OR WAS IT 6 HOURS
  2. blankslate is offline

    WEIGHTING

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,538

    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 11:58pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry but this post was just really enjoyable.

    If all this is accurate...I had a few thoughts:

    *Maeda was more of a badass than I previously knew. How come all the histories of GJJ that I read left out so much of Maeda's accomplishments?

    *Sounds like the Gracies are trying to take all the credit and give none to the Fusen Ryu Posse. (Helio is one of my heroes by the way)

    *I am encouraged that a fighter of such greatness was a champion of "modern" times. That tells me that the knowledge of the Masters is not so far gone as we would think.

    *2000 and 2...ummmm? You thought Rickson was bad..

    *Judo is the shiznitz. Just think if someone masters Judo to the hardcore degree, adds in boxing, MT, wrestling, catch(?), you may just have the same type fighter as an empty hand Samurai fighter...probably better.

    *Even Maeda understood that Boxing and Wrestling were arts to be dealt with...not dismissed.

    *Kano, Kimura, Maeda...all from Judo...

    *Everyday, Judo has higher and higher esteem in my eyes.
  3. blankslate is offline

    WEIGHTING

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    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,538

    Posted On:
    2/15/2004 12:03am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Maeda stated in his autobiography that his approach to fighting was so successful because he took the techniques of Kodokan Judo and modified them for real combat, bringing them down to their most efficient, basic, and effective methods."

    This was interesting because I thought Kano had already done that.

    I wonder where I can get a copy of that autobiography...
  4. Beneath Contempt is offline

    Cowardly Henchman

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    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,012

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 12:22pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by liuzg150181
    Gives me an urge to take up judo(would sport style or kodokan style make any difference?)~~~~
    (Sorry,no bjj in singapore)
    There's a Matt Thornton gym in Singapore that teaches BJJ.
  5. El Tejon is offline

    Yuppie Scum

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    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Indiana USA
    Posts
    326

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 2:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: Mantis, WC, Escrima/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very interesting. Thank you for posting this, pat.
    Kung fu is translated as "stand around and talk."
  6. milwaukee cop is offline
    milwaukee cop's Avatar

    Welterweight

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    milwaukee
    Posts
    814

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 4:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kempo-Goju Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    very good post
    16 years till retirement.
  7. Acid The Great is offline

    Registered Member

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    Apr 2004
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    132

    Posted On:
    7/26/2004 1:59am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Brilliant post! Makes me proud to have been given the chance to practice judo, I really do hope I get the chance to take it again in the future.
  8. willy is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jun 2003
    Posts
    542

    Posted On:
    7/26/2004 9:45am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by liuzg150181
    Gives me an urge to take up judo(would sport style or kodokan style make any difference?)~~~~
    (Sorry,no bjj in singapore)

    it's all kodokan, however you want a place that does about 50%standing and 50% ground.
  9. GregW is offline

    Registered Member

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    Feb 2004
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
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    131

    Posted On:
    7/26/2004 10:30am


     Style: Taijiquan - Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    liuzg150181 - I agree w/Willy on the 50/50 thing and I have only run into Kodokan as well. The biggest difference I have seen is that some Judo schools are geared primarily for competition while others compete w/out making it the main focus. Either way, it is *definitely* worth checking out if you have an interest.
  10. Junpei is offline

    Registered Member

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    Aug 2004
    Location
    Japan
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    33

    Posted On:
    8/07/2004 10:44pm


     Style: |

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote: - "until 1900 when it entered a contest against Fusen Ryu Jiu-Jitsu. The Fusen Ryu differed from other Jiu-Jitsu school in Japan in that they dedicated almost all their training to "ne waza", or grappling techniques."

    Where did you get this from? An internet site? Hogwash! Fusen Ryu jujutsu (founded 1830 by Fusen Osho) was a derivative of Takenouchi ryu which specialises in kumiuchi koshi no mawari (grappling). Newaza is "floor fighting" something which was added to Judo in the late 1950's! Judo was primarily a throwing and locking art, as influenced by Tenshin shinyo ryu and Kito ryu the two main ryu that Jigoro Kano studied and drew his inspiration from.

    Quote:- "The Fusen Ryu fighters would pull the Kodokan fighters between their legs and fall to the ground, once on the ground they would apply a choke or joint lock and force the Kodokan fighters to submit (the modern day equivalent to "pulling guard"). The Kodokan were defeated by submission in all ten of their matches, it was the schoolfs first defeat. Kano now realized that ne waza was of equal or greater importance to tachi waza (throwing techniques)."

    The technique you describe was a technique that Jigoro Kano would already have been familiar with, as it is from Tenshin shinyo ryu! Where did you get this information from? The Kodokan as a martial arts institution (the Kodokan as a school was founded in 1882) was never defeated in any matches. The One match that was held to show the superiority of Kodokan Judo over the older schools of jujutsu resulted in Judo coming out on top, the reason why so many quickly adopted Judo over the older jujutsu ryu.

    Tachi means to "stand." Tachi waza are therefore "standing techniques." "Nage" means to throw, so nage waza are "throwing techniques."

    Quote:- "Kano persuaded Fusen Ryu's headmaster, Mataemon Tanabe, to instruct him on Fusen Ryu techniques and principles."

    Huh? What rubbish! Mataemon Tanabe (1851-1928) was a practitioner of Yoshin ryu. He was a slight and slim fellow who practiced catching eels with his bare hands to be able to catch anyone in a fight and quickly throw them down and pin them there.

    You mention Jikishin ryu, but there is actually NO CONNECTION with the JUDO of Jikishin ryu and the Kodokan Judo of Jigoro Kano. The Jikishin ryu was the first ryu to use the term "Judo" in 1724, 168 years before Jigoro Kano's time! Kodokan Judo was founded in 1882! and at first was referred to simply as Kano Judo. Jigoro Kano NEVER trained in Jikishin ryu which was practiced at the other end of Honshu (main island of Japan). A branch of Jikishin ryu, the Kito ryu is what Jigoro Kano practiced.

    The rest of the article has some minor flaws, but these are the main ones. Ne waza (floor fighting) was NOT a major part of Kodokan Judo until well into the 1950's. The main focus of Judo was up until then randori (free practice) and kata (forms). The reason it was so effective in actual matches was because jujutsu had, like ALL the other ryu, focused on ONLY kata for training. Randori was what made Judo so much better. Kano had picked this up from Kito ryu.

    Judo today has become VERY tainted - to the point of being useless! Judo practitioners no longer know how to lock or control a person while still standing, and they have NO idea what to do against a punch or other strike.

    Quote:- "he took the techniques of Kodokan Judo and modified them for real combat, bringing them down to their most efficient, basic, and effective methods."

    Ha ha ha. You mean he took a fighting art that Kano had made into a sport and then made it back into a fighting art?! Thatfs absurd. The various schools of jujutsu that Kano had practiced were seen as so rough and deadly at that time. They were practiced by descendents of the various Samurai families and various criminal groups - jujutsu was VERY combat effective to begin with. To the point of most students ending up with broken limbs during practice. Kano wanted people to practice WITHOUT the injuries. So he formed Judo, softer and easier to practice. He was responsible for inventing ukemi waza (the breakfalling techniques) so that people could fall and get back up again (jujutsu was about throwing people so that they WOULDN'T get back up again!) Maeda already had experience in several other schools of jujutsu before becoming one of Kano's students, he simply took out the "softer" stuff that Kano had added - in effect reverting it back to jujutsu.

    Brazilian jujutsu (jiujitsu for those who canft pronounce Japanese) is no more effective at REAL fighting than sports (Kodokan) Judo, or any of the traditional fixed systems today.

    My source: Kodokan Judo archives, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo, Japan.
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