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  1. Shorinji Ki is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2004 4:45am


     Style: Machimura SuiDi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Junpei
    As for "reality training" vs. "traditional budo," many don't seem to realise that traditional budo WAS reality training - 400 years ago! So what happend? It stagnated. It became a profession, a way by which teachers could make money. It became codified and selective in its teachings.

    What is "tradition" anyway? Isn't "tradition" about keeping the original ideals (that of winning an encounter) alive and effective. As a Japanese I'm sick to death of all those old koryu teachers who just train for the sake of training. They say they are keeping the tradition alive, but to me that is NOT "tradition." The various arts were made for COMBAT/SELF-DEFENCE - those that are just fancy dancing don't desrve to be called "budo."

    Quote: - "Some example i would think is knife defense.For example traditional karate uses X-block while aikido uses wrist lock(such thing ends up as wrestling for the knife and if the attacker pulls back the hand it would cut the arteries of the arm),whereas the "attacker" would just lunge once with a knife and stops there,letting the partner dance in tune to the attack(in reality they keep on attacking,with piercing or swinging motion).

    These arts (Karate & Aikido) were not designed to defend against the knife attacks of today - or even those encountered outside of Okinawan/Japanese culture. The type of knife attack they deal with is typically Japanese (Samurai based). It comes from kata training whereby the defender is ALLOWED to apply his technique. The problem here is that many just stop there and don't go any further to explore all the possiblities. (Mind you I doubt the techniques described also from a modern standpoint)

    So are you saying that any traditional karate style (traditional meaning Okinawan) is useless in the self-defense department? You suggest that things must change and new ideas must be adopted in order for a MA to remain relevant. Well isn't this what all good MAs should do? "Adapt to change"- Sokon Matsumura (progenitor of Mashimura Sui-di/Shuri Te).

    The art(s) of toudi jutsu was from many influences: Jigen Ryu, White Crane and other Shaolin Chuan Fa styles, Tegumi, and the indigenous Ryukyuan MA called "Ti". It was an amalgamation of ideas (you could call it MMAs). The Okinawan MAs traditions were taught in a less formalized manner (than their Japanese cousins), and many of its earliest grandmasters came from a tradition of visiting other dojo in order to glean new methods and possivbly better solutions to certain problems. Hohan Soken (founder of Matsumura Seito Suidi [Shorin Ryu] said so himself in his Ernest Estrada interview (1978). To suggest that proper kata training is outmoded or just some dance is to show the lack of knowledge and training one has in real karate. Now if you want to say that about Japanese karate then fine. The intent was never in their diluted kata and the mnemonic lost its meaning with the introduction of Japanese "do" ideology to gendai karate. Blame the Butokukai.

    As far as weapon disarms are concerned, you best have a weapon to counter a weapon, or hope that Lady Luck is on your side. All the practice in the world in a more advanced or modern SD system won't insure a damn thing. I'd take a knife wielding assailant anyday vs. the best Yoseikan-ka or modern SD "specialist".

    You mentioned earlier that the typical, traditional karate strike is useless in today's world. What is a typical karate punch anyway? I know that what I've done my entire life looks a lot like boxing with and emphasis on linear punching and the use of body-change, footwork, angular movement and superior positioning. I found that my boxing knowledge was enhanced after taking up my first style of Shorin Ryu. I also found that without the reinforced layers of tape and gauze, and inches of foam padding, punching with the barefist is a completely different problem set than the punching dynamics and philosophy inherent to gloved punching sports (western pugilism). It never hurts to get that fanatic training and ring time in that you receive proper boxing training, but to take that ability/condiditioning and transfer it to the dimension of skin, bone, blood sinew and the adrenaline dump of the real world is a special skill that very few people, karate-ka or boxer alike, will ever possess.

    Since you are a Japanese stylist I doubt you have even experienced tried and true Okinawan fighting methods. Oh and the bit about Chinese punches being inferior in the armored punching department was silly. Some of the strongest punchers ever known were from Chinese styles such as hsing yi and baguazhang. Other than striking the neck, why would you try and punch at breaks in the armor? Joint manipultaion and chokes would make more sense.

    You know that the Japanese up to the Meiji Restoration were considered inferior, by themselves and the Chinese, in the science, math, literary and warring disciplines. I'm almost sure that their reverence for the advanced Chinese culture, extended beyond literary, calligraphical, philosophical and scientific concerns. You know that they learned a few MAs ideas form the Chinese monks, diplomats and warriors. Lao Tzu comes to mind. Read Takuan Soho, if you haven't already. Don't let nationalistic feelings rule your logical mind, man.

    One last thing. Chuan Shu and Tang Hand/Empty hand(karate) comprise hundreds of theories and schools. You can't use a general term when you say karate. I've seen karate-ka beat wrestlers, kickboxers, streetfighters, other grapplers, boxers, and so forth on the concrete, and I've seen the reverse too. It really isn't the style so much as it is the stylist. At the same time, all styles were not created equally. Those're the truths as they stand.

    I too lived in the Philippines (for 7 years). It was very enlightening and the people in America can't even begin to picture what living in an impoverished and violent country is like. It made me realize what will work on the street and what won't. Most folks who have lived in suburban USA can only assume that what they learn in the MAs will work for real.

    Thanks for a very concise and true history of Kodokan Judo and the jujutsu/aikijujutsu traditions. GJJ/BJJ peeps read the real, and learn the deal.

    Peace
    Last edited by Shorinji Ki; 8/24/2004 4:54am at .
  2. liuzg150181 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2004 9:55am


     Style: fumoffu!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Junpei:Sorry to miss the thread for few days,shall comment yours ASAP.
    Now for Shorinji Ki:
    As far as weapon disarms are concerned, you best have a weapon to counter a weapon, or hope that Lady Luck is on your side. All the practice in the world in a more advanced or modern SD system won't insure a damn thing. I'd take a knife wielding assailant anyday vs. the best Yoseikan-ka or modern SD "specialist".
    Junpei is actually criticizing on BS taught regarding so-called knife defense to people nowadays.

    Since you are a Japanese stylist I doubt you have even experienced tried and true Okinawan fighting methods. Oh and the bit about Chinese punches being inferior in the armored punching department was silly. Some of the strongest punchers ever known were from Chinese styles such as hsing yi and baguazhang. Other than striking the neck, why would you try and punch at breaks in the armor? Joint manipultaion and chokes would make more sense.
    Others i either agree or wouldnt comment,but i(and Junpei) had said before it is different nature of warfare itself.Chinese battlefield are often in large scale and effect of MA training in such battlefields is unarmed combat is negligible,thus chinese MA striking are more for teh street where people wear clothings instead of armour.
    Japanese warfare,at least the early ones before sengoku era,is mostly very small scale and looks like royal rumble,thus unarmed combat is tailored for the armor and the striking component is to strike the gap of armour,not on it~~~
    "People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
    - Uncyclopedia entry on Judo
  3. Thylacine is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2004 10:59am


     Style: Gattsu Poozu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Junpei: gOne senior police the other day (with a 3rd dan in Judo and a 2nd dan in Yoshinkan Aikido) was attacked with a lead pipe. He reacted instinctively, dodging the many strikes as fast as he could and simply backed away leading the attacker into a narrow passage where he couldn't swing anymore. He then jumped the guy and simply kicked him in the jewels. Where was his budo training? Where were his fancy aiki locks and his Judo throws? In a life threatening situation YOU WILL JUST REACT INSTINCTIVELY - hopefully for the best, but I've NEVER come across a budo trained person who has successfully used his budo alone to subdue an attacker.h

    Did he use the specific techniques of his arts to attack? No (but as he was attacked by a weapon, that was only appropriate). Did he use the attributes he developed in randori? Almost certainly. The timing, distancing, keeping a steady mind under attack, etc. These attributes are developed under pressure and come out even under pressure. The fact that he led the guy into an alley and used a kick when he finally attacked is proof that with an effective delivery system and a steady mind, you can use other techniques outside of the sportfs rules on the street. You can use whatever is appropriate at the time, without robotically acting as if you were in a competition following the rules.

    Therefs that old, apocryphal story about the Samurai who wanted to test his three sonsf skills. He set a vase above the door so that when someone entered it would fall on them. He then called each of his sons into the room in turn.

    The youngest son drew his sword and cut the vase in half before it hit the floor.

    The middle son cut another in quarters.

    The eldest son calmly caught his vase as it fell, shut the door, and then set it back in place.

    The eldest son was judged the most skillful precisely because he used his presence of mind to react appropriately in the moment, using the attributes developed in his training rather than robotically responding with the specific techniques of his art.
  4. Thylacine is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2004 12:05pm


     Style: Gattsu Poozu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Junpei: gI have not dismissed kata nor sportive training - I just want to point out that it is NOT THE ONLY MEANS TO THE END. Kata is useful - if you use it to build timing, distancing etc. then you MUST adapt, move on to RANDORI type REALISTIC SCENARIO TRAINING.h

    I agree with you. For me, ideally a MA would have a sporting element which focuses on all-out randori/competition, and/or a more realistic style of randori taking into account more of the likely elements of a real self-defense scenario, and a kata-trained element for effective techniques that are genuinely too dangerous to use in randori.

    That said, I think the argument for the sports element (trained in isolation) is that although not being the most geared to the street, itfs more effective than only training street-orientated techniques in a kata manner. To use a metaphor: The attributes developed in randori are the gengineh that powers the gmachineryh of the techniques. Itfs better to have a large, powerful engine for a limited number of techniques than to have a small, inadequate engine powering a large number of techniques. Of course, the ideal is to have the best of both.

    Junpei: gREALISTIC TRAINING CAN NEVER BE BECAUSE WE NEED TO HAVE BOUNDARIES, RULES. But does REALISTIC self-defense NEED to have as you said "most dangerous, effective self-defense techniques." Why do you equate martial techniques with "dangerous" or "violent." Surley using dangerous techniques to defend yourself will land you in trouble with the law?h

    I said that sports styles donft have many of those techniques. I wasnft equating all martial techniques with them, or implying that they are the best to use in every situation. That said, itfs better to have a wide range of tools in your toolbox. If some thugs break into your house and try to stop you from rescuing your wife and kids as the attackers try to kill/rape them, you want to be able to dispatch them as quickly and efficiently as possible if you can. If you are attacked by a drunken relative at a party you want to know how to restrain him without doing any real damage. Itfs all about what is appropriate to the situation, surely?
  5. Thylacine is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2004 12:41pm


     Style: Gattsu Poozu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Junpei: gBy the way, Tassy Tiger, Where in Japan are you? If you are able to come to Kanagawa I would welcome a visit. Perhaps you can come and train with us at the Tokyo Riot Police dojo? Will you be in Japan long? It's good to find another budoka to talk with in English.h

    I live not that far from Hamamatsu in Shizuoka. My wife is Japanese and I have a spouse visa, so Ifm living in Japan indefinitely. Thanks for your offer to visit and train. Hopefully I might be able to take you up on it at some stage.

    Just so I donft unintentionally misrepresent myself, I have to say that Ifve just got back into martial arts recently after a very long break, so I donft know if I deserve to be called a hbudokah as yet. In fact, the topics in this thread are very relevant to me because I am trying to choose which style(s) I would be best off concentrating on. I have been doing a lot of research and thinking about these kinds of issues. I finally have the time available to train and donft want to waste it in the wrong art(s). I canft find any one art that will fill the requirements of my gidealh, so I will probably end up cross training.

    Perhaps you can give me some advice here. What koryu (or other) style(s) do you recommend? How can I go about finding such a dojo? (Not much in the phone book.) Have you heard of Seifukai Budo, and if so what do you think of it? http://www.seifukai.net/ Ifd appreciate any advice you could give me.
  6. patfromlogan is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 12:16am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ttt


    I just want to read this **** again and toot my little horn. And don't tell the wife it's little, she thinks it's normal.

    Yeah yeah, necrophilia and all that. But back in '04 seems like ancient history...
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 12/10/2007 12:19am at .
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