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  1. #31
    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it Join us... or die
    Goju - Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
    You make some good points but one needs to exercise caution if you accept them without qualification. Many grappling submissions work great in controlled (I.e. Rules governed) situations. We do full resistance typoe grappling but with rules. Then we change it up to simulate a no rules environment . Example. guy has you in a good guillotine choke and you start sticking your fingers in his eyes. (OK we just simulate it, you caught me. ) Guy will not maintain the choke. Guy has you in a rear naked and you pull a knifeout of your pocket. Guy will not maintain it.

    Earlier post on Awareness, Avoidance, Adrenal dump and fine motor skills had great points. A Easy read is eyton quinn's "Real Fighting".

    Not to get all scenario argumenty but I fail to see how once the guillotine is applied that they can do more than brush your face with their fingers in a manner which can be defended by squinting real hard.

    And A RNC with a knife in the pocket.

    I guess but in both cases when a choke is put on right you can have the guy asleep in 15 seconds, which is enough time to where knife in pocket or eye poke won't matter to much.

    I don't disagree with your dissertation about certain subs and such but the two you use as examples are probably the worse ones to use as a point as they have been shown to both be effective, and unfortunately lethal in real life scenarios.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    Not to get all scenario argumenty but I fail to see how once the guillotine is applied that they can do more than brush your face with their fingers in a manner which can be defended by squinting real hard.

    And A RNC with a knife in the pocket.

    I guess but in both cases when a choke is put on right you can have the guy asleep in 15 seconds, which is enough time to where knife in pocket or eye poke won't matter to much.

    I don't disagree with your dissertation about certain subs and such but the two you use as examples are probably the worse ones to use as a point as they have been shown to both be effective, and unfortunately lethal in real life scenarios.
    OK, I guess we can agree to disagree. You defend fingers jabbed in your eyes by squinting and let a guy stab you for 10-15 seconds while you apply a choke. Me, I think I would save my sight and choose not to blead out.

  3. #33
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    Goju - Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
    OK, I guess we can agree to disagree. You defend fingers jabbed in your eyes by squinting and let a guy stab you for 10-15 seconds while you apply a choke. Me, I think I would save my sight and choose not to blead out.
    If I have you in a rear naked choke with proper control, hooks and over under arm control

    Unless your name is Wolverine.

    You can't reach behind and jab me in the eye with any degree of effectiveness. Power, speed or surprise

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosJesena View Post
    Now compare that to an eye gouge. Hands down, the eye gouge has WAY more potential to be MORE effective than the Uchi-Mata. You cannot disagree with that, it attacks a very vulnerable spot on the human body. BUT the point is, you've only been working on it with little resistance and it's definitely with a compliant partner. You can't drill this going 210% and go on the internet to tell us about it. You and your partner would be blind (because it IS effective). Now the problem is, you haven't been able to troubleshoot this technique and explore the different avenues and levels of it because all you can do is LARP it. Now I don't just mean this for the eye-gouge but I mean it to apply for all of the 12-step fancy shmancy (this is a metaphor, people) techniques to help you in a "self-defense" situation.

    Peace!
    Uh, no. I appreciate your effort but you need to think this through. Uchi mata has a ton more potential to be effective. An eye gouge can, if you sit there and let him do it (not going to ever happen) eventually destroy your sight in one eye. Eventually. An uchi mata can knock you unconscious in a split second or even kill you. It also puts you on the ground either being stood over or pinned by someone. Remember that most people do not know how to safely fall out of a throw and are likely to not tuck their head and slap to break the force of the fall.

    Uchi mata wins.

    OK, I guess we can agree to disagree. You defend fingers jabbed in your eyes by squinting and let a guy stab you for 10-15 seconds while you apply a choke. Me, I think I would save my sight and choose not to blead out.
    While we're playing make believe, I'll have to point out that a RNC does nothing to stop you from trapping one of their arms with your leg, preventing them from doing anything with that arm.

    Observe, since I'm sure you'd have no idea what I was talking about otherwise:


    Also, he's right. In a proper guillotine, there just isn't any angle for the person being choked to reach the choker's eyes while keeping any sort of strength in the limb. It would be weak fumbling at an awkward angle, and all he has to do is turn his head away and all your work finding his eyes are for nothing. Recall also (if you ever knew) that a guillotine only leaves you a few seconds before you start blacking out.

    To wrap up this stomping of your straw-grasping: No offense to Goju-Joe, but his numbers are a bit off or vague. A RNC, or any other choke, on an opponent who is not competently (as in, is a trained grappler) resisting takes only a few seconds to put someone unconscious. It's when they know the little tricks and angles to maximize their time while they try to escape that it stretches on to 10-15, and only if they are successful in using those little tricks.

  5. #35
    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it Join us... or die
    Goju - Joe's Avatar
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    Also if you try to gouge my eyes my nice blood choke is going to turn into my not so nice trachea choke

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    Uh, no. I appreciate your effort but you need to think this through. Uchi mata has a ton more potential to be effective. An eye gouge can, if you sit there and let him do it (not going to ever happen) eventually destroy your sight in one eye. Eventually. An uchi mata can knock you unconscious in a split second or even kill you. It also puts you on the ground either being stood over or pinned by someone. Remember that most people do not know how to safely fall out of a throw and are likely to not tuck their head and slap to break the force of the fall.
    Point taken.

    I was actually just using that as a sort of analogy. I meant it for other "d34dly" techniques like groin strikes etc. They attack very vulnerable bits and if you do it the way it's supposed be done "on paper", it's in a sense more efficient. But, as you don't practice these techniques 100%, it won't work in a real fight. Digs?

    Peace!

  7. #37
    Mtripp's Avatar
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    Gosh, so much to say, and where to begin...

    1. Gene LeBell taught me how to take the eye long ago. It will scare the hell out of you as to how easy it is to get and do, IF you are a grappler. The Moe Howard attack simply doesn't work, as proven by the Curley block....

    2. There is a way to make the choke take longer, which would allow you to pull a knife or gun and begin serious injury to the attacker. Those moon shaped blades on quality pocket knives are made to force a release from a hold.

    The problem with all of these debates is that they seem to come from an odd view that "sport" is different from the "street." Well no ****. But it falls apart when they say "My martial art is for the street." If ANY unarmed combat method was really effective in Combat, we would not have developed weapons.

    Unarmed combat is used when our weapons were not at the ready, or we were so foolish as to not have them. So our "self-defense" methods should be in that context.

    I don't know about anyone else, but training like that gets old quick, and no amount of LARPing really gets anyone ready. So I will continue to say what those with a Judo base have said for 80 years or more. You understand the context, you train specifics for that context, then you drill your martial sport for exercise, health, and solid skill sets.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    no amount of LARPing really gets anyone ready.
    /thread
    Last edited by CarlosJesena; 3/03/2010 9:26am at .

  9. #39

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    This is to the beginning quarrels in the top of this thread combat hapkido is no different than regular hapkido. If you doa technique quicker you are bound to miss the small details of a technique. Done slower and proper care you discover small details to help you take more control of the situation. Slower is faster. Which means youve done a technique properly so many times slowly you can perform it much quicker without thinking about it through muscle memory.:new_scatt:XXfridge::icon_joke:crybaby2:

  10. #40

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    All hapkido is based off the quality of the instructor, if you do not learn the proper joint manipulation and pressure points along with the correct foot work. It really doesn't matter what style of hapkido you take. I study the ups and downs I call it :) Hapkido for ups and BJJ for downs and I can tell you the instructor is all that matters.

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