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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 5:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Joe's Theory of effective self defense and why most schools that claim to teach it fail

    1. Situational awareness

    "Hey look down that alley, there's 4 guys who want to kill me'

    Proper training makes you walk away

    Where schools that teach self defense without resistance and sparring fail is that they often substitute this training with Multiple Attacker scenarios

    Now when I did Aikido the TradJJ we did these types of drills, but the premise was that it trained you to react quickly while performing responses that were predefined and roles such as attacker and defender were defines. As far as helping to condition your reactions they were OK but not the same as sparring (nor should they be) for me however it was never presented as a case of learning to realistically take on multiple attackers. It's just a reaction drill

    When people say "Hey we learn for the street and how to survive and take on 20 people."

    I know they're being taught **** and given a horrible false sense of security which will negatively effect their situational awareness.


    2. Fight or flight response

    We have millions of years of evolution that have grown this thing called an adrenal gland, that in high stress and pressure situations dumps adrenaline into our system and that pumps blood to our major muscles so in case of danger we can get the **** out of there.

    Schools that emphasis technique that requires fine motor skills AND THTA CAN NOT BE CONDIITIONED UNDER PRESSURE SITUATIONS like good sparring and rolling.

    FAIL

    in helping people learn to master this adrenaline dump.

    Plus the loss of fine motor skills mean most of their techniques will be useless under pressure.

    Again lack of sparring and learning to deal with this is harmfull.

    3. Conditioning your autonomic response to pain and fear.

    Sparring teaches you about getting hit and responding intelligently to pain and fear.

    Again self defense schools often fail at this and don't do any conditioning for this.

    Boxing, Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai Kyokushin and so forth all have sparring elements that condition the practitioners to push through the pain and fear.


    Now does Combat Hapkido address these issues?

    I have no idea but when I hear people throw up excuses about training for the street while ignoring the real issues of what real street self defense is I get very skeptical and frankly hostile because there's no reason for it but ego.

    There's a great Hapkido school here in Toronto that trains, hard, fights hard and cross trains so there's no reason Combat Hapkido shouldn't

    Any excuses about sport vs street is just that an excuse.

    Bullshido is about exposing Bullshit in MA and unfortunately the Street VS Sport argument is one of the worst examples of bullshit
  2. Swaa is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 5:53pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: combat hapkido, san shou

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see you're the resident know it all. I'll leave you to play in your sandbox by yourself. Maybe you can try to impress someone else with your superior martial art knowledge.
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 5:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow I didn't see that coming

    Ok then
  4. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 5:59pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @SWAA I know the type of sparring you are describing. I've seen it and experienced it as well. It only happens in schools whose teachers do not understand the training involved in sparring.

    Before you start, no, I'm not saying people in your school can't fight, protect themselves, or escape bad situations. I'm just saying that it gives me pause when people make statements like these:

    I respectfully disagree with sparring being a training tool, only because it tend to teach you the "exchange factor". You hit me, I hit you back.
    Sparring ISN'T self defense. Sparring is a form of duel fighting. Two people agree to combat. In the street, this isn't so. People tend to sneak to attack in the street.Sparring has rules; self defense doesn't.
  5. ignatzami is offline
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    l Travel To Get Choked!

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 7:31pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swaa View Post
    I see you're the resident know it all. I'll leave you to play in your sandbox by yourself. Maybe you can try to impress someone else with your superior martial art knowledge.
    He knows more then you, in fact most of us know more then you because we have been where you are and we've grown up, matured, and moved beyond the fantasy fighting, we've all gotten hit, been hit, sparred. You have not.

    Until you do, you have no place to talk, only to listen. If you really want to prove us all wrong I'm sure a Bullshido member would be willing to meet with you to spar.

    In fact, if you had your location filled in I might even be able to recommend someone to you.

    Also, your website sucks.
    Last edited by ignatzami; 2/19/2010 7:39pm at .
    I do not aspire to be great, or even good, I hope to suck a little less then last class.
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 8:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's funny I don't think I was being a know it all or even attacked his particular school pr training but I guess I hit a nerve.

    I wish I knew he was going to have a fit and run off and I could have saved myself the effort of typing
  7. CarlosJesena is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2010 9:32am


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Lifting+Cardio

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fact is if you can throw or submit a TRAINED, 100% resisting guy who's also trying as hard to beat you, it will work in a real fight. You can't "work on" something in the middle of the fight. You gotta be killing people in the gym with it before it's going to work in a real fight. Even before you look at the streets, just look at all the style vs. style and MMA fights. Yeah yeah yeah street vs. sport. The evidence is OVERWHELMING that unless you SPAR with the full resistance it will not work once it's showtime.

    Even if you say you train for "the streets" and not for "the cage/ring/mat/whatever", if it doesn't even work on the mat, how will it work on the street? The fact is if in that semi-controlled environment, you can't pull stuff off, how do you expect to pull it off when the dude's trying to KILL you.

    So I dunno what's with all the disagreement.
  8. Earl Weiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2010 6:44pm


     Style: TKD & JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosJesena View Post
    Fact is if you can throw or submit a TRAINED, 100% resisting guy who's also trying as hard to beat you, it will work in a real fight. You can't "work on" something in the middle of the fight. You gotta be killing people in the gym with it before it's going to work in a real fight. Even before you look at the streets, just look at all the style vs. style and MMA fights. Yeah yeah yeah street vs. sport. The evidence is OVERWHELMING that unless you SPAR with the full resistance it will not work once it's showtime.

    Even if you say you train for "the streets" and not for "the cage/ring/mat/whatever", if it doesn't even work on the mat, how will it work on the street? The fact is if in that semi-controlled environment, you can't pull stuff off, how do you expect to pull it off when the dude's trying to KILL you.

    So I dunno what's with all the disagreement.

    You make some good points but one needs to exercise caution if you accept them without qualification. Many grappling submissions work great in controlled (I.e. Rules governed) situations. We do full resistance typoe grappling but with rules. Then we change it up to simulate a no rules environment . Example. guy has you in a good guillotine choke and you start sticking your fingers in his eyes. (OK we just simulate it, you caught me. ) Guy will not maintain the choke. Guy has you in a rear naked and you pull a knifeout of your pocket. Guy will not maintain it.

    Earlier post on Awareness, Avoidance, Adrenal dump and fine motor skills had great points. A Easy read is eyton quinn's "Real Fighting".
  9. CarlosJesena is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2010 10:02pm


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Lifting+Cardio

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
    You make some good points but one needs to exercise caution if you accept them without qualification. Many grappling submissions work great in controlled (I.e. Rules governed) situations. We do full resistance typoe grappling but with rules. Then we change it up to simulate a no rules environment . Example. guy has you in a good guillotine choke and you start sticking your fingers in his eyes. (OK we just simulate it, you caught me. ) Guy will not maintain the choke. Guy has you in a rear naked and you pull a knifeout of your pocket. Guy will not maintain it.

    Earlier post on Awareness, Avoidance, Adrenal dump and fine motor skills had great points. A Easy read is eyton quinn's "Real Fighting".
    Oh yeah, I understand that of course, no matter what we do, we can't really train 100% realism, it's a fact. I just left a few of the qualifications out from brevity's sake :thumbsup: I'll check out that book.

    The thing about all of those dirty tactics is in spite of the fact that they might work, you don't know that. For analogy's sake, let's take an Uchi-mata vs. an eye gouge.

    Now, the Uchi-mata, you've used it in Randori a million billion zillion times where the dude you're sparring against is trying as hard as he can to counter you with a Tai-Otoshi. That and he's probably around the same level of skill as you are. You've also used it in a competition where the other guy's using every ounce of strength he has not just to counter your throw but also to grab on to your gi, play defense etc. do EVERYTHING to stop your throw. As much as you're operating under rules, you're still working on that technique with as much resistance as we safely can have. You're troubleshooting it. You're exploring the possibilites of what to do if "let's say he's hanging on to my belt, how can I still pull this off?" or "let's say he's countering my overhook with an underhook and it's really tight. How can I still pull this off?" etc. It becomes a high percentage technique that's just natural and instinctive to you.

    Now compare that to an eye gouge. Hands down, the eye gouge has WAY more potential to be MORE effective than the Uchi-Mata. You cannot disagree with that, it attacks a very vulnerable spot on the human body. BUT the point is, you've only been working on it with little resistance and it's definitely with a compliant partner. You can't drill this going 210% and go on the internet to tell us about it. You and your partner would be blind (because it IS effective). Now the problem is, you haven't been able to troubleshoot this technique and explore the different avenues and levels of it because all you can do is LARP it. Now I don't just mean this for the eye-gouge but I mean it to apply for all of the 12-step fancy shmancy (this is a metaphor, people) techniques to help you in a "self-defense" situation.

    Peace!
  10. hungryjoe is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2010 12:23am

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Newbie CJ, who will do well here.

    OP,

    Style field has no HKD ^^^^

    There's a reason for that.

    Around 94 I decided that the sparring was not realistic.

    Don't get me wrong. The time spent in HKD was time I don't regret. Harder contact that TKD and some good stuff thrown in to boot.

    HKD vs. CHKD?

    Unless you're training against fully resisting opponents, it's all the same. Regardless of what you or others espouse.

    There is NO equivalent to training against a resisting opponent. Search and ye will see from so many who have gone before.

    Enjoy the CHKD. Just don't get sucked into the hype.
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