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  1. zardoz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    south of europe
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    33

    Posted On:
    2/13/2004 9:21am


     Style: WT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The Tai-Chi-Chuanization of WingTsun

    Many MA and SD enthusiasts speak and write about Wing Tsun nowadays. Back in the 90s, the style got very popular in Europe and, maybe to a lesser extent, in the USA, thanks to -above all- the Leung Ting and Kernspecht big federation (IWTA/EWTO). Why? I certainly can't speak for every place or dojo. But one of the main reasons of its popularity was that some demonstrations (held in dojos or MA meeting or Police department) showed competent and hard fighters (like for example a German guy called Michael Fries) kicking the ass of other experts. The attitude was an "in your face" one. The method (that I experienced then) was: 'attack me like you want' - a mayhem sistematically followed.

    How's the situation now? Much worse. Too many instructors, too many (mc)dojos. But - which is more important - the style has been watered down and went under a process of "Tai-Chi-Chuanization". The "Yin", soft side of the training has become predominant. Demonstrations are 99% of the time pre-arranged. "Sifus" in the dojos ask to be attacked "with a right hook" or "with such a pressure I can perform Tan-Sau" and so on...
    The reason why WT has been Tai-Chi-Chuanized? Because it can nail a lot more of participants... Martial Artists continue to train in it because they remember the "old days", while newbies sign in because of the appeal of a chinese MA that promises self-defense abilities without risking the smallest scar!

    This sucks. It's a shame for a style whose aim was street self-defense. The level is sinking. And it's high time WT people should learn from Thai Boxe and Submission Grappling for everything regarding training and a genuine hard-core approach to combat.
  2. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    São Paulo, Brazil
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2004 11:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: The Tai-Chi-Chuanization of WingTsun

    Originally posted by zardoz

    This sucks. It's a shame for a style whose aim was street self-defense. The level is sinking. And it's high time WT people should learn from Thai Boxe and Submission Grappling for everything regarding training and a genuine hard-core approach to combat.
    Hear, hear.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  3. Jenfucius is offline

    Shogun of Long Island

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    Jun 2003
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    4,013

    Posted On:
    2/13/2004 11:55am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sure, blame tai chi for all your problems!
  4. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    São Paulo, Brazil
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    5,426

    Posted On:
    2/13/2004 11:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damn xingyiquan and their standing meditation.

    There, are you happy?
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  5. much love is offline

    MMA Fighter/Instructor

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    684

    Posted On:
    2/15/2004 5:25pm


     Style: Jazzercise

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i agree wholeheartedly
  6. virtual_mantis is offline
    virtual_mantis's Avatar

    Welterweight

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    895

    Posted On:
    2/15/2004 5:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: 7 Star

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that this type of thing happens in many "arts". In order for it to appeal to the masses, it has to be watered down. I compare it to seeing a band live and then hearing them on the radio. Seeing them live is what they really are and then you hear them on the radio and they are watered down pop that appeals to the masses. I'm not saying I agree with it.

    In martial arts, I think it works like this. You have a bunch of instructors out there that for what ever reason, be it ego or just a love for martial arts, they decide to open a school full time. In order to make enough money to support themselves they must attract a lot of people, in order to attract a lot of people they water down their art. I'm not saying that I agree with this. This is just how I think it happens.

    I also believe that there are a lot of schools out there that are true to their art and dont give you the watered down crap, you just got to find 'em.
  7. Darting Fingers is offline
    Darting Fingers's Avatar

    Fancy a milkshake?

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    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,322

    Posted On:
    2/15/2004 7:16pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are still people out ther practicing WC who are going at it hard, fast and in your face. This **** happens and its a sell out, but thats how the cookie crumbles sometimes. Just let them do their thing and you do yours.
    "Pussyhole"
  8. blankslate is offline

    WEIGHTING

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,538

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 12:56am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool title. This is interesting. So what schools are not caving in? If you want to learn some hardcore Wing Chun...ahem....where do you go?
  9. TaeBo_Master is offline
    TaeBo_Master's Avatar

    Certified Fitness Trainer

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    San Antonio, TX
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    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 1:24am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This logic has one hole. If the in your face demonstrations are what made it popular, then that would seem the strategy to continue to attract more people.... instead of doing what made it popular and then CHANGING...
    Click To Get My Free Training Newsletter... Do It NOW!


    "You all just got fucking owned.";
    "TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."

    - The Wastrel
  10. Jolly_Roger is offline

    Lord Of the Rhymes

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    1,918

    Posted On:
    2/16/2004 1:58am


     Style: Pimpin/Tango-thanks Xango

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tae Bo, I think that what he meant was that it made it more popular on MARTIAL circles, which are quite small, compared to the consumer base outside those circles....
    Tai-Chi it's the only MA that advertises longevity, Self-Defense, and combat without breaking a sweat to fifty-years-old dumpy women. My aunt, for example, does Tai-Chi because she "don't get beat up and as sweaty as you do" practicing Kali or Wrestling.
    Of course, she ask me to attack her at full strenght. I'm 26, she's 54, dumpy, and my Aunt. Would you hit her hard? Therefore, the legend goes on...the day a frail, 120 years old chinese man enters the Pride FC, perhaps that will change, but I don't see many Sifus lining up...
    Canuckyokushin:

    These women can do back flips right over my head and still land on there feet .GRrrrrrrr!

    feedback:

    THAT'S NOTHING, I USED TO KNOW SOME 12 YEAR-OLDS WHO COULD FIT INSIDE A SUITCASE AND STAY ALIVE FOR 7 OR WAS IT 6 HOURS
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